Accounts Payable Automation: Who will win out? We catch up with Nook, one of the OGs of AP automation

[00:00:00] Shall we crack on because Ryan needs his pipe and slippers?

[00:00:03] Oh, speaking of which, got the slippers on?

[00:00:08] Right, I can barely get my leg up this time.

[00:00:11] Always forget that Ryan has the bendy legs.

[00:00:14] That's not bendy legs.

[00:00:17] That's why we call him Ryan Pearcy Pretzel.

[00:00:21] The Pearcy Pretzel.

[00:00:23] The way you led into that, John,

[00:00:24] it was like you were trying to think of the pun after you said Ryan.

[00:00:27] It's like Ryan Pearcy Pretzel.

[00:00:31] Yeah, Scott.

[00:00:31] I'm always trying to think of the pun after I mentioned good name, Ryan.

[00:00:35] Ryan Punshbag Pearcy.

[00:00:37] Yeah, that's a summary of the pod really, isn't it?

[00:00:40] Free agent have sponsored this one.

[00:00:42] Have they?

[00:00:42] Oh, we could make it extra friendly then.

[00:00:44] Come on.

[00:00:45] Yeah, this is possibly the friendliest podcast.

[00:00:48] It'd be friendly, Indi.

[00:00:49] Come on, friendly.

[00:00:50] Friendly like free agent.

[00:00:51] Oh, you could do your northern accent.

[00:00:53] You could put on your very best Edinburgh accent.

[00:00:55] Oh, I can't do Edinburgh without having to hear

[00:00:58] so I need the ear to be a tune.

[00:00:59] You don't like guitars that need tuning.

[00:01:01] You need to hear the accent once.

[00:01:05] Well, you could just compromise.

[00:01:06] Do a Glasgow accent.

[00:01:08] Glasgow?

[00:01:09] Glasgow.

[00:01:10] That's it.

[00:01:10] I don't know anything about Glasgow.

[00:01:14] And I get slated.

[00:01:16] I'm sorry.

[00:01:17] Why should one of Scott make it?

[00:01:19] Can't just say the word Glasgow in a weird way.

[00:01:22] That is the default, isn't it?

[00:01:24] Glasgow.

[00:01:24] That's what you're doing.

[00:01:25] That's it.

[00:01:26] Laziness.

[00:01:28] What's a laziness?

[00:01:30] Stab the English.

[00:01:31] That's all I mean.

[00:01:32] Stab.

[00:01:34] You've got, ah, you wee bath day.

[00:01:36] How about you?

[00:01:37] Can I have you?

[00:01:38] You're doing it Edinburgh.

[00:01:39] You should have listened to the last Digiodogist.

[00:01:41] I think he's from Edinburgh.

[00:01:43] Adam.

[00:01:44] He's from up that way.

[00:01:45] Yeah, he is.

[00:01:46] Yeah.

[00:01:46] I'm not going to do that but...

[00:01:48] Go on anyway.

[00:01:48] Go on.

[00:01:49] It won't be friendly because there are people outside

[00:01:51] of Scotland who are friendly.

[00:01:52] Welcome to today's Digitools in a Crawl World podcast.

[00:01:56] I am joined today by my very friendly co-hosts

[00:02:00] and today's episode has been sponsored

[00:02:03] by free agent, one of the friendliest accounting tech

[00:02:07] softwares in the industry.

[00:02:09] Before we go any further, I will throw to Ron

[00:02:13] to see how he's doing and then we may bring in

[00:02:18] the most controversial man in accounting tech

[00:02:21] and accountancy, John Toon.

[00:02:24] But let's see how he feels.

[00:02:26] Right, how are you?

[00:02:26] Let's not do that.

[00:02:27] Let's just leave him out there.

[00:02:28] I'm good.

[00:02:29] I'm good.

[00:02:29] Thanks, Indy.

[00:02:30] Looking forward to a very busy week

[00:02:33] and I know by the time this podcast comes out

[00:02:35] we would have made some big announcements

[00:02:37] regarding what we're doing in the digital

[00:02:39] transformation space.

[00:02:40] So, you know, really excited about what we're doing.

[00:02:43] And hopefully a few other sponsors

[00:02:45] that we'll talk about at some point.

[00:02:48] In the future episodes.

[00:02:49] So, we're really excited about that.

[00:02:50] We'd like to just say a quick shout out to all of the sponsors

[00:02:54] that we've been working with lately,

[00:02:56] including Journey who sponsored our DigiGames

[00:02:59] event at the digital accounting show

[00:03:02] organized by the Rockstar,

[00:03:05] and it was John Toon.

[00:03:07] How are you, John?

[00:03:08] Come on then, bring it.

[00:03:10] An hour late, John.

[00:03:11] An hour.

[00:03:13] Such a diva, right?

[00:03:14] I'm loving the enthusiastic welcome, Indy.

[00:03:16] Thank you.

[00:03:17] I'm all good. I'm very happy.

[00:03:18] I'm looking forward to next week

[00:03:19] with Dance and DigiGames, everything else.

[00:03:21] Let's see what we can do.

[00:03:22] I think it's going to be fun time.

[00:03:24] We'll also be talking to Vipul Sheth,

[00:03:25] CEO of Advanced Track later,

[00:03:27] to talk more about what he's doing in the industry,

[00:03:30] some of the events that he's brought about

[00:03:32] and communities that he's also building

[00:03:34] with Advanced Track Outsourcing.

[00:03:36] Shall we crack on with that, Nings?

[00:03:42] I've got something to say.

[00:03:43] Dear Jolly has been promoted

[00:03:45] to Chief Product and Technology Officer.

[00:03:48] So she was Chief Product Officer already

[00:03:52] and appointed in April 2023,

[00:03:56] but has now been promoted to Chief Product

[00:03:59] and Technology Officer, which is great.

[00:04:02] I think that it's always interesting

[00:04:04] when someone from product is able

[00:04:05] to also service the technology side as well.

[00:04:08] Slightly uncommon because those seats are quite big,

[00:04:12] but tend to be quite fractious and disjointed.

[00:04:15] So it's good that Zero have led with one...

[00:04:17] Are you being fattest there with these seats are quite big?

[00:04:20] No, I'm not being fattest.

[00:04:22] I just generally mean that usually the Chief Product

[00:04:24] and the Chief Technology Officer

[00:04:26] aren't always the easiest duo to navigate.

[00:04:29] So the fact that they've put it into one person,

[00:04:32] it's interesting.

[00:04:34] Are you saying itinerant or antisocial or awkward?

[00:04:37] I am also not saying that,

[00:04:39] but maybe you could stop putting words in my mouth

[00:04:43] and talk about what you think about it.

[00:04:46] How about that, Dawn?

[00:04:48] Thank God it's only words, Indy.

[00:04:51] John too. I have no words for you now, John.

[00:04:55] Good. I personally am very excited about this appointment.

[00:04:59] I think it's going to be really interesting to see

[00:05:02] where this takes Zero next.

[00:05:04] They've probably struggled a little bit around products,

[00:05:07] maybe not technology, but certainly around products

[00:05:08] in the last couple of years or so, maybe longer.

[00:05:11] So hopefully now that they've got someone in this role

[00:05:13] who can drive that forward alongside the technology changes

[00:05:16] and challenges that they have.

[00:05:17] So I think it's a good thing.

[00:05:18] And I think actually having those two roles combined,

[00:05:20] I think probably works quite well,

[00:05:22] because being able to communicate the challenges they have

[00:05:25] of bringing new product to market

[00:05:27] whilst overcoming the technology challenges

[00:05:29] that they have will be better for it,

[00:05:31] because they've certainly had problems

[00:05:33] getting that communication right,

[00:05:34] particularly around removing the blue reports,

[00:05:36] the changes to invoicing and things like that

[00:05:39] where people are found frustrating.

[00:05:40] Let's see where that goes.

[00:05:41] Any other movers and shakers in our industry?

[00:05:44] Oh, there's always movers and shakers in our industry

[00:05:46] and there's one or two that are frequent movers.

[00:05:48] It's like a giant accounting chessboard out there, Indy.

[00:05:52] Mr. Phil Hopton has recently joined Silverfin.

[00:05:55] So he's joined as UK products lead, I think it is,

[00:05:59] or senior product manager, there you go.

[00:06:01] I've checked.

[00:06:01] He's going to be taking that role forward,

[00:06:03] I guess with a focus, particularly on the UK market.

[00:06:05] We know that Silverfin have been building up the UK team

[00:06:08] and obviously making quite a lot of work in the UK

[00:06:12] in terms of trying to get that buy-in back from people

[00:06:15] who have had poor experiences with them in the past.

[00:06:17] And I think this is great.

[00:06:18] I think it's a great opportunity for Phil.

[00:06:20] Obviously, he's been at Walter's Clear

[00:06:22] and a few other big names.

[00:06:23] He's recently finished a six-month contract with No8 as well,

[00:06:26] which is the Silverdeck collection credit app.

[00:06:28] So he's got bags of experience, certainly on the sales side as well,

[00:06:31] which I think will really help them.

[00:06:33] But I think it's going to be interesting to see

[00:06:34] how he can take on this sort of role

[00:06:36] and also use his experience to bring that role forward

[00:06:39] and also help to shape what Silverfin need to do

[00:06:43] over the coming months and years

[00:06:45] to really establish themselves as a major player in the UK market.

[00:06:48] Definitely, they've been doing big hires over the last six months.

[00:06:51] So Phil Holmden being another one.

[00:06:53] But I'd like to know, John, the most pressing question

[00:06:55] is which chess piece is he? Is he a bishop?

[00:06:58] Is he a castle?

[00:07:00] I think he'd be more of a knight

[00:07:02] because he's done some interesting and unusual moves of late.

[00:07:06] I'd like to actually catch up and check in with LMH

[00:07:10] since the sale to Vismar

[00:07:11] because we haven't done that with Silverfin yet.

[00:07:14] And also we have covered them a few times

[00:07:16] in terms of the AI capability of Silverfin.

[00:07:20] So that would be a really good thing for us to try

[00:07:22] and broker and coordinate, I'd say.

[00:07:25] You can speak to her on Tuesday morning, can't you?

[00:07:28] When you see her on Wednesday morning,

[00:07:29] whenever it is for your lady's tech breakfast.

[00:07:32] That's right.

[00:07:32] I need to reach out and find some more ladies in technology,

[00:07:35] accounting technology, complete side note.

[00:07:38] If you're a lady in accounting technology,

[00:07:41] joining any of the events that are upcoming,

[00:07:44] then reach out to LMH because we have a network

[00:07:47] that is being established

[00:07:49] that is just for women in accounting

[00:07:51] and women in accounting technology.

[00:07:53] Brilliant.

[00:07:54] That's very exciting.

[00:07:55] Moving away from people into making everything digital

[00:07:59] with HMRC.

[00:08:01] HMRC are, as we know,

[00:08:03] releasing their private beta for MTD.

[00:08:06] It's on the 22nd of April.

[00:08:09] But what's, I guess, newsworthy

[00:08:11] is that there's only five vendors

[00:08:13] that are going to be taking part in this from launch,

[00:08:15] which are one, two, three sheets limited,

[00:08:18] which I guess doesn't record keeping,

[00:08:19] but mostly focuses on bridging software.

[00:08:22] SE reports, a bridging software.

[00:08:24] Self-assessment direct, also a bridging software.

[00:08:26] And then intuit QuickBooks and Sage accounting.

[00:08:29] Obviously, as we know,

[00:08:31] we'll be able to do the record keeping and the filing.

[00:08:34] But you've got some big names obviously missing from that,

[00:08:36] such as zero, free agent, iris, tax count, et cetera.

[00:08:39] And zero came out and said that actually

[00:08:41] that they have no interest in taking part

[00:08:43] in this element, this release,

[00:08:45] and they're only going to get involved

[00:08:47] from the public beta testing in 2025.

[00:08:50] I wonder why they've made that decision

[00:08:51] because that's quite a bold statement to make,

[00:08:54] I think, isn't it?

[00:08:55] Yeah, they basically said

[00:08:56] that they don't think the software at this stage

[00:08:58] is going to look anything like what it's going to look like

[00:09:01] when it goes to the public beta.

[00:09:02] So they want to see what evolves over this period

[00:09:05] and then jump in.

[00:09:06] We've developed when it actually makes sense

[00:09:09] to integrate where the structures change.

[00:09:10] I think they're going, yeah,

[00:09:12] how do you see a likely to change the structure massively,

[00:09:15] probably given what they've done in the past.

[00:09:17] Let's spend our time wisely and do it

[00:09:18] once there's a little bit more experience

[00:09:21] in what they've received

[00:09:22] and how they've had to process it.

[00:09:23] When I was at Capium, we had the same problem

[00:09:26] actually back then when it was MTD for VAT.

[00:09:29] But the first versions,

[00:09:30] they changed and evolved so much

[00:09:32] that you had to do the work again essentially.

[00:09:35] I think it's wise.

[00:09:36] Yeah, an element of one bit and twice shy.

[00:09:38] And I guess, Intuence Age can certainly afford to spend money

[00:09:44] at utilising this as a marketing opportunity.

[00:09:46] Spend Desk, powered by Bankable currently,

[00:09:48] who have also acquired Occo if I'm not mistaken.

[00:09:54] And the reason this is interesting

[00:09:56] is Occo is all to do with procurement.

[00:10:02] Spend Desk is obviously the expense management

[00:10:05] platform that works for mid-sized businesses

[00:10:07] and has grown to unicorn status

[00:10:09] and has always managed the expense cards

[00:10:12] for, gosh, the last over the last decade now.

[00:10:16] But Occo, they are a procurement platform

[00:10:19] that helped digitise the procurement process

[00:10:22] from the initial need to the final purchase order.

[00:10:26] And they provide collaborative, automated

[00:10:28] and frictionless processes

[00:10:30] for finance teams, legal teams,

[00:10:32] IT departments to get involved

[00:10:33] in the procurement process.

[00:10:35] It's what we were seeing with them

[00:10:37] and talking to with Bogdan from April

[00:10:40] and extending itself right the way back

[00:10:42] into that procurement process

[00:10:44] so that they're able to capture the expenses

[00:10:47] and capture the purchases,

[00:10:49] which Spend Desk has always seen some of that

[00:10:51] purchasing and procurement data

[00:10:53] but never had the full control of it

[00:10:55] because even when you have the application

[00:10:59] you're able to see the suppliers.

[00:11:01] And now this goes a step further.

[00:11:03] It's nice to see them acquire something

[00:11:05] that actually is a good synergy.

[00:11:07] Yeah, we've seen a couple of these big things.

[00:11:08] I'm sure we've seen a couple of these recently.

[00:11:10] The one that kind of comes to mind at the moment

[00:11:12] is like an app which has got a British name

[00:11:15] but it's called Pecurify.

[00:11:18] Again, it tends to target in at the ERP level of apps.

[00:11:21] But I would be interested to see

[00:11:24] where Occo places itself.

[00:11:25] Or do they go in at that ERP level

[00:11:28] or do they play in the slightly smaller space?

[00:11:31] And I guess going from the big procurement side

[00:11:35] down to small invoicing.

[00:11:37] So Xero have been developing their invoicing features.

[00:11:39] Obviously they've announced that they're getting rid of

[00:11:41] the traditional invoicing

[00:11:42] and replacing it fully with the modern invoicing

[00:11:44] and they've been developing that

[00:11:45] because there are gaps basically.

[00:11:47] What's coming is they are going to be adding

[00:11:50] multiple delivery addresses on an invoice,

[00:11:52] which is great because that's been something

[00:11:54] that's been asked for in the product ages.

[00:11:56] They're going to be adding the ability

[00:11:57] to request partial payments and deposits

[00:11:59] via the invoicing screen.

[00:12:01] It would be really interesting to see how they do that

[00:12:03] because I guess the invoicing functionality

[00:12:05] doesn't really enable that at all at present.

[00:12:08] They're going to expand the ability

[00:12:10] to add customization of invoicing templates

[00:12:13] and for the way you manage repeating invoices,

[00:12:17] improved control and smart scheduling of reminders

[00:12:20] and then easier statement creation

[00:12:23] and statement payment capability.

[00:12:25] All of these I guess have been highlighted

[00:12:26] of weaknesses, big points for a while

[00:12:29] in the invoicing system so it's good they're all been worked on.

[00:12:31] There have been quite a few things that they have been doing

[00:12:33] in the background, more refining the invoicing functionality

[00:12:37] at present such as being able to copy information

[00:12:40] from invoices to quotes,

[00:12:42] option to create another invoices

[00:12:45] that's been going through.

[00:12:45] The whole flow in the invoicing

[00:12:47] tends to be at the moment if you create one

[00:12:48] you have to go back and then create another one

[00:12:50] and then other things I guess

[00:12:52] such as adding references and clicking through.

[00:12:54] One bit I had missed which I think is pretty good

[00:12:56] is the option to send a receipt after payment

[00:12:59] has been added to an invoice

[00:13:00] so you can just instantly send the receipt out.

[00:13:02] I think this is a very clever play by Zero

[00:13:04] because I've been seeing the commentary

[00:13:07] over the last few weeks and months

[00:13:09] and quite a few of the international

[00:13:11] and national like zero groups

[00:13:13] particularly on Facebook

[00:13:14] and they have copped an absolute ton of heat

[00:13:17] for the poor functionality of the new invoicing in Zero.

[00:13:21] I think this is very clever from them.

[00:13:24] Knowledge of problem, they've owned up to the problem

[00:13:26] and they're obviously going to do something about it

[00:13:28] but also I think it's a very clever marketing

[00:13:29] and comes from them in terms of calming

[00:13:32] a few discontented and disgruntled users.

[00:13:36] I think this is actually a common trend

[00:13:37] because they did this reporting

[00:13:39] where they made an announcement

[00:13:40] that get rid of the traditional reporting

[00:13:43] point where the modern reporting

[00:13:45] could not replace everything in traditional reporting

[00:13:47] everyone gets up in arms gets really annoyed

[00:13:49] and then they come with all these new announcements

[00:13:50] that make the modern reporting much better

[00:13:53] and everyone's actually we call it like this now

[00:13:54] it's much better than what I expected it was going to be

[00:13:56] because it was so bad when they made the announcement

[00:13:58] in the first place

[00:13:59] and so they're now doing that with invoicing

[00:14:00] maybe they're going to do this with everything

[00:14:02] they're just going to announce

[00:14:02] they're getting rid of something

[00:14:03] before the next thing's ready

[00:14:05] and then they'll just develop it all

[00:14:06] based on what people say when they moan

[00:14:09] maybe that's the way to isn't that the sass playbook

[00:14:10] surely that's a sass playbook right

[00:14:12] is it's release early

[00:14:13] and then modify and update and correct

[00:14:15] if it's not wait until it's perfect

[00:14:16] and then release it's get something out there

[00:14:18] and then deal with the feedback.

[00:14:20] True and maybe this is what Dia Jolly does

[00:14:22] and now her success is pushing this out.

[00:14:25] I've got a little bit of an update as well from SIFT

[00:14:28] they've released a whole bunch of small updates

[00:14:32] and changes to their product

[00:14:33] you can now combine SIFT and accounting provider budgets

[00:14:36] so if you're on zero equipment for example

[00:14:38] and you do your budgets within there

[00:14:40] you can now combine those together

[00:14:41] so that you can analyze different scenarios

[00:14:43] and allocate resources more effectively

[00:14:44] at consolidated levels

[00:14:46] so it could be for example

[00:14:47] that you've got zero instance where you've done a budget

[00:14:49] but you've got another one we haven't

[00:14:50] but you want to do one in SIFT for whatever reason

[00:14:53] and you can actually bring those together now

[00:14:54] and consolidate them up a report on them

[00:14:56] which is really great

[00:14:57] and you can also bring multiple budgets

[00:14:59] from multiple zeros or other systems together as well

[00:15:02] so again you've got that great ability

[00:15:04] to be able to do consolidated reporting nice and effectively

[00:15:07] they've also improved some of their KPI visualizations

[00:15:09] most accountants look good number

[00:15:11] but everyone else like to see these things visually

[00:15:13] and so you know you can now bring in

[00:15:16] things like customizable graphs

[00:15:18] and other bits and pieces into the product

[00:15:20] and it's customizable and does all the dynamic resizing

[00:15:23] of the graphs and the images and stuff

[00:15:24] so you don't have to worry about it looking a little bit

[00:15:27] simple when you do it

[00:15:28] so that's really great to be able to do that

[00:15:30] I think that's one of the killer features that Fathom has

[00:15:32] for example in their reporting modules

[00:15:34] and you can also now start to drill down

[00:15:37] into the source data as well

[00:15:39] so you can see if things have been edited

[00:15:41] obviously again one of the things that SIFT does

[00:15:43] is not just reporting everything else

[00:15:44] but it has something that's very similar to Xavier

[00:15:46] which is that next precision

[00:15:48] and some of the other data mining tools

[00:15:50] as it allows you the ability to see and check transactions

[00:15:53] and it allows you to see if things have been changed

[00:15:56] and what's been going on

[00:15:58] they also now integrate with Simple Pay

[00:16:00] but you can pull in payroll data

[00:16:02] and see that within some of the reports and dashboards

[00:16:04] I'm not sure how popular Simple Pay is

[00:16:07] it's not the product I'm hugely familiar with

[00:16:09] but for those people are using it

[00:16:11] having that ability to bring in more detailed payroll

[00:16:13] information into reporting is always going to be useful

[00:16:15] and they've also brought in the ability to create

[00:16:19] new period lengths and types

[00:16:21] on the standard P&I on balance sheet reports

[00:16:24] so things like 445s which were always really difficult to do

[00:16:29] you can now do that then SIFT covers all scenarios

[00:16:33] My gosh that was a long update from you John

[00:16:35] Can we end on something a little bit lighter?

[00:16:38] Ryan, really curious about this

[00:16:40] I didn't realise that a square and blend were acquired

[00:16:43] how does that impact an accounting firm

[00:16:47] and some seem to have been going on a buying spree

[00:16:51] so you're one of many

[00:16:52] So some had come into the market with a plan to acquire

[00:16:56] a number of mid-tier accounting firms

[00:16:59] and it instantly propelled themselves to top 20 overall

[00:17:03] and we were one of those

[00:17:05] so we've been working on that for at least the last six months

[00:17:10] six to nine months

[00:17:11] and we are now one of nine regional hubs around the country

[00:17:15] part of the summer group

[00:17:16] so we are effectively 75% owned

[00:17:18] we still have like 25% of the share capital

[00:17:22] which spread between those that are looking to push the business forward

[00:17:26] but yeah our corporate structure has changed now

[00:17:28] and the main reason for this is we wanted to grow

[00:17:31] we had big ambitions

[00:17:32] but the partnership model that we're in hampered that

[00:17:36] because of the way you know

[00:17:36] its structure and the incentivised stripping of the funds out of the practice

[00:17:41] this enables us to seek those ambitions

[00:17:43] yeah it's quite an exciting time really

[00:17:46] lots to do lots going on

[00:17:48] So how big is your family now?

[00:17:50] Big as in how many people are in the entire of the summer group

[00:17:57] Yeah

[00:17:58] If you're asking me employee numbers I believe it's over a thousand

[00:18:02] so we were 115 we're now over a thousand

[00:18:05] Scrottenbland is not the biggest firm

[00:18:06] we've got huge firms in it such as Monahans and Carbota Box

[00:18:10] which used to be part of the MHA group

[00:18:12] and have left it a while ago

[00:18:14] and have now become part of summer

[00:18:16] and then you've got other firms such as EQ

[00:18:18] which I believe have just

[00:18:20] quiet or merger with another firm up in potentially Scotland I think

[00:18:24] so yeah there you go

[00:18:26] So there's a lot going on

[00:18:27] we would expect a lot of acquisition over the next year

[00:18:31] and I believe the aim is to be top 10 in the not too distant future

[00:18:35] Big boys, big girls

[00:18:37] Yeah that'd be sexist

[00:18:38] Big people

[00:18:39] Big balls

[00:18:40] On a completely different point

[00:18:42] have you looked at the presentation John?

[00:18:44] I have looked at the presentation and it's all very good

[00:18:46] I'm very excited about what we're going to say

[00:18:48] Have you really looked at the presentation John?

[00:18:50] He doesn't know what it's on

[00:18:52] If you read the speakers notes John

[00:18:55] No I didn't read the speakers notes because they go off

[00:18:57] Oh my god

[00:18:57] Pages and pages

[00:18:59] You can barely, the speakers notes take up like 18 slides worth

[00:19:03] commentary for one slide

[00:19:04] and I was like

[00:19:05] Yeah

[00:19:05] I'll just wing it

[00:19:06] Oh no never will you love John

[00:19:08] It's got a picture

[00:19:09] It's got a picture

[00:19:10] and I go oh look squirrel

[00:19:12] You don't, you don't

[00:19:14] I should have added a squirrel

[00:19:15] You need to at least add

[00:19:17] What the fuck am I trying to say here

[00:19:18] You need to at least know what slide you're talking on

[00:19:21] Are you happy with that?

[00:19:22] Number three

[00:19:25] Do you know which side you're talking on?

[00:19:27] Look at you like this

[00:19:28] I do I actually read the speakers notes

[00:19:31] That's right

[00:19:31] Did you?

[00:19:32] I did download

[00:19:33] Oh yeah it's got it all ready for myself

[00:19:35] I must have taken you all day

[00:19:37] I called Ryan yesterday about it John

[00:19:40] Jonathan

[00:19:40] Did you?

[00:19:41] I did

[00:19:41] I did

[00:19:42] What did you say Ryan this is too fucking long

[00:19:44] I said that the formatting was a little bit off

[00:19:47] I was apologizing for not coming back sooner

[00:19:50] and I said

[00:19:51] Yeah I understand where the speakers notes

[00:19:52] Yeah okay I reviewed

[00:19:54] Beautiful

[00:19:55] Beautiful

[00:19:55] Did you edit any of the speakers notes?

[00:19:58] No I thought they were substantial

[00:20:00] Are you going to read them like a robot?

[00:20:02] No don't do that

[00:20:03] They're definitely not for that

[00:20:05] I'm not going to do that

[00:20:06] I'm going to read it in a northern accent the entire time

[00:20:10] Just for what we can round the like John

[00:20:12] What kind of northern accent are you gonna go for?

[00:20:15] Sam Mitchell

[00:20:16] No

[00:20:19] I really am gonna join her when she comes and gives you that giant kick

[00:20:23] Kick in the knackers

[00:20:25] Yep

[00:20:26] Just if you know it from behind that's gonna be hard

[00:20:28] Anyway sorry

[00:20:30] Harder than before

[00:20:31] Is it?

[00:20:31] There we go Ryan

[00:20:31] I love my kink

[00:20:36] As John says

[00:20:37] Take it like a man

[00:20:39] Yeah basically curl up on the ball and cry to yourself

[00:20:43] Wimp

[00:20:44] Wimp

[00:20:45] I will that if she kicks me that is what I'm doing

[00:20:48] I'm like this is worse a child birth

[00:20:52] My normal thing is a mixture of rage and tears

[00:20:55] Well I want to go and kill someone but I mean too much pain to move

[00:20:59] That's what I want to do

[00:21:01] Yeah

[00:21:01] Can I just ask how you feel about asking the audience if they're well lubricated

[00:21:06] That was one thing that I did notice on the notes

[00:21:09] You did read the notes John

[00:21:11] You just read them now

[00:21:14] I got chat GPT to summarise them for me

[00:21:18] Turned my own scophias notes into three bullet points

[00:21:20] We know it's not that good

[00:21:22] And all is said indelibricated Ryan

[00:21:26] And John's like talk shit again

[00:21:28] Let's get summary

[00:21:34] Ryan we are back with Vipul Sheth from Advanced Track

[00:21:38] One of our core sponsors the digital disruptors

[00:21:40] And we're going to talk about conferences

[00:21:43] Because Vipul is well known for his pre-account text conferences

[00:21:47] That he's done over the last few years

[00:21:49] But before we launch into his event

[00:21:51] I just want to talk to you more broadly Vipul about conference sector

[00:21:55] The conference market at the moment

[00:21:56] There's a lot going on over the next few months

[00:21:58] What are your thoughts on that

[00:21:59] And does it work for you as a business and do you think it works for a camp

[00:22:03] Thank you John

[00:22:04] There are lots of events in 2024

[00:22:07] The problem that a lot of these events have is they're becoming very similar

[00:22:11] So I think then it just comes down to

[00:22:15] Do you have the time to go to wherever those are

[00:22:18] Whether they're in Birmingham or London or Manchester

[00:22:21] For that matter

[00:22:22] Let's be honest

[00:22:23] You can be at account tapes

[00:22:25] Most people are not going to use every product or service in the room

[00:22:29] Yeah

[00:22:29] I think that would be impossible

[00:22:31] Yes exactly

[00:22:32] Speaking from most of the firms that we work with

[00:22:36] At most they would say they have 10 or 12 core products

[00:22:42] Which they use in the majority of their client base

[00:22:46] And so I think that's where I see conferences

[00:22:50] Are adding value

[00:22:51] But you've got to prepare in advance

[00:22:54] To make the most of it

[00:22:55] Because otherwise you'll walk past things and think

[00:22:57] Well I wonder what they do and not have a purpose

[00:23:01] Because you could spend all day at account text for example

[00:23:05] And come away and think I didn't learn anything

[00:23:07] Yeah and you make an interesting point about being prepared

[00:23:10] Because I think it is too easy to go to events and not come away

[00:23:13] But I don't think a few bags full of cups and socks and t-shirts

[00:23:17] I don't know as well

[00:23:18] What are your sort of top three tips for people attending conferences this season

[00:23:23] I think first and foremost you've got to look at what your firm has done well

[00:23:29] Because do more of it

[00:23:31] And go and talk to those vendors that have helped you deliver that

[00:23:35] Because you'll inevitably learn from what changes they brought into their products

[00:23:40] Or their support for example

[00:23:44] Which will enable you to drive that even faster

[00:23:46] So I think number one that

[00:23:48] Equally there'll be things you didn't do well

[00:23:50] Now that might be the product's not good

[00:23:54] Or it might be actually your implementation as a firm

[00:23:57] Of it's not been very good

[00:23:59] And that can be just you've not taken the support that's actually available

[00:24:04] Because what most good product businesses do

[00:24:08] Is they have very good onboarding

[00:24:11] And if you've just not asked the right questions

[00:24:13] Or perhaps you put the wrong people onto those training courses

[00:24:18] Because let's be honest some people don't want to have change

[00:24:22] They'll pay lip service

[00:24:23] And then what then happens is you then struggle to

[00:24:26] Turn that into something that's actually a useful addition to your armory if you like

[00:24:33] So I think those are the two key things

[00:24:36] And then look at where does the firm want to go for the next 12 to 24 months

[00:24:42] Identifying people in that product category

[00:24:46] And then having a list of questions that we're going to ask

[00:24:50] And then book the appropriate demos

[00:24:52] Don't stand there for 20 minutes

[00:24:55] And watch the demo at a count text

[00:24:58] Because it's a bit like going into a retail store

[00:25:02] There's all the theater and excitement and sign here

[00:25:06] But that's not what it's about

[00:25:07] Actually what you want is to give it the time that's appropriate

[00:25:12] And maybe you line up in one week all the different

[00:25:15] Products within a certain category

[00:25:17] And then you can ask all of those questions

[00:25:21] In detail on a one-to-one basis

[00:25:23] Rather than having 10 people standing around you as you're asking these questions

[00:25:28] And you're often seeing your ad events with a stand

[00:25:31] And obviously you've got to make choices in terms of return on investment

[00:25:36] Visibility etc

[00:25:37] What's your sort of critical focus in terms of events this year

[00:25:40] And why are you going to those ones over others

[00:25:42] We're at a count text

[00:25:43] We've been there for a number of years

[00:25:45] It's the biggest event around I guess

[00:25:49] So I think we're almost expected to be seen there

[00:25:53] It's fair to say

[00:25:54] It's a numbers game right

[00:25:55] Yeah, we do the alternative events

[00:25:58] Because we've got a lot of mid-tier firm clients

[00:26:02] And we're very strong in that space

[00:26:04] And we're at Zerocon as well

[00:26:07] This year we did their Sydney event

[00:26:09] Last year and we're certainly at their London event

[00:26:13] In June of this year

[00:26:14] Yeah, but we're a tech first business

[00:26:16] We're a cloud business

[00:26:18] Zerocon fits in really well with who we are and what we do

[00:26:22] Yeah, makes sense

[00:26:23] And what was the last event that you attended

[00:26:25] Where you either made really good connections

[00:26:27] Or learnt something that you can take away from

[00:26:30] To roll out into advance track go forward

[00:26:32] Thing the biggest thing I always think is

[00:26:36] Our customers or potential customers

[00:26:38] Doesn't really matter

[00:26:40] Yeah, if they're switched on

[00:26:42] They understand technology

[00:26:44] Or they understand their clients

[00:26:46] We always learn from talking to those people

[00:26:49] Any event that enables us to have those connections

[00:26:53] I always find useful

[00:26:54] So it's as simple as having a coffee with somebody

[00:26:57] Who I've never met before

[00:26:58] But if they're interesting and they want to share

[00:27:01] That's the thing I always find invaluable

[00:27:05] Because good people

[00:27:07] They don't mind sharing

[00:27:08] It is my view

[00:27:10] You'll have seen me at events

[00:27:12] I'm always happy to share stuff with people

[00:27:15] The more you do that, the more you get back

[00:27:18] So I couldn't probably name it as to which event it was

[00:27:22] But I think it has been those side conversations

[00:27:25] Rather than a formal conversation

[00:27:27] That's really added the value

[00:27:29] So you're talking about

[00:27:31] Your adding value and everything else

[00:27:32] Obviously you've got your pre-account text conference

[00:27:35] Happening again this year

[00:27:36] I started to promote that already

[00:27:38] So tell us why you started that

[00:27:40] And what's the purpose of that, I think

[00:27:41] So the first one we ever did was back in 2017

[00:27:45] We had about 14 people

[00:27:47] And I think so relatively small

[00:27:49] We had Gary Turner and James Astrid speaking at that event

[00:27:53] We did it with one view

[00:27:55] If our clients are more successful

[00:27:58] We can't help but be more successful

[00:28:00] And that's the premise that we decided

[00:28:02] That it's about creating an environment

[00:28:05] Where people come along

[00:28:07] Share good practice

[00:28:08] We'll invite good speakers along

[00:28:11] And the best feedback we can say is

[00:28:13] People come back year after year

[00:28:15] So you must be adding some value

[00:28:17] And we never expect people to go away with a list

[00:28:20] As long as you're on

[00:28:22] But if they go away with three or four things

[00:28:25] On a list

[00:28:26] Actually these are the things I need to focus on

[00:28:28] Over the next 12 months

[00:28:30] That's a great result for us

[00:28:31] Because it's given them something to address

[00:28:36] Which they then will go away and actually implement

[00:28:39] Because nothing worse than you just have a list of things

[00:28:42] Which you never do anything with

[00:28:44] Agreed

[00:28:44] I think that's a great set of points to wrap up on there

[00:28:47] Yeah, perfect, thank you

[00:28:49] No, pleasure

[00:28:50] Thanks

[00:28:55] Yeah, honestly if it was Indy that had done this

[00:28:58] You would be like oh Indy was a tit

[00:29:00] And she forgot or something like that

[00:29:01] Oh no, I've already said this

[00:29:03] No, no, it's like John's come an hour late

[00:29:05] And it's just oh don't worry John, don't

[00:29:07] And then remind him I'm firing

[00:29:09] We didn't have a guest and

[00:29:11] Ryan shares his abuse privately

[00:29:14] And I take it like a man

[00:29:15] I give it to him hard

[00:29:16] What the fuck does that mean you take it like a man

[00:29:18] You disgust me

[00:29:20] You disgust me with that comment

[00:29:22] You offend me with that comment

[00:29:23] I just I let bygones be bygones

[00:29:25] That's all Indy, I don't hold a grudge

[00:29:27] If I let Ryan down

[00:29:28] He does not really shit

[00:29:29] I take it when I do like Ryan as well then

[00:29:32] If I've let Ryan down

[00:29:34] Which happens with

[00:29:36] In very incredible frequency

[00:29:38] Incredible frequency

[00:29:40] You let your cow down

[00:29:41] You've let your country down

[00:29:44] You've let your country down

[00:29:48] Well, like I say it seemingly happens with

[00:29:52] Uncanny regularity so there you go

[00:29:55] I just we move on

[00:29:56] We're all grown-ups

[00:29:58] Ryan's still grumpy

[00:29:59] He still thinks nothing gets done on time

[00:30:01] Or quite to his standard or expectations

[00:30:03] But eventually

[00:30:06] Like we make glacial progress

[00:30:08] And everything advances in the right direction

[00:30:09] I wish to have a problem with you

[00:30:12] I have the problem with Ryan

[00:30:14] Not doing

[00:30:16] Having a problem with me

[00:30:18] Yes

[00:30:18] Because I get it so frankly

[00:30:21] The first hour

[00:30:22] After the one hour mark

[00:30:25] Actually after the 49th minute

[00:30:27] We ran out of things to say to each other

[00:30:30] And we just looked the other way

[00:30:31] And we're messaging in the group

[00:30:34] To say don't even look at me

[00:30:38] Stop looking at me

[00:30:40] But you left your camera on

[00:30:42] Is that what you're saying?

[00:30:43] Yes

[00:30:43] Yeah

[00:30:44] That's the worst kind of voyeurism ever

[00:30:46] That's what we did

[00:30:47] It was um

[00:30:48] No, I just have a problem with that

[00:30:50] Okay, I don't have a problem with you

[00:30:51] All right

[00:30:52] Can we just

[00:30:52] Can I just more check then

[00:30:53] The way you're saying it and do

[00:30:54] This is all Ryan's fault

[00:30:56] It's always right

[00:30:57] Yeah, okay good

[00:30:58] Slugs we're aware

[00:31:00] Slugs have got that right

[00:31:01] We're in agreement

[00:31:02] Got it

[00:31:03] I concur, let's crack on

[00:31:04] It's your fault for being too on time

[00:31:07] And demanding Ryan

[00:31:08] That's what it is

[00:31:08] You need to lower your expectations

[00:31:14] I'm delighted to be joined by Joe Lines

[00:31:16] From Nook

[00:31:17] One of our favourite guests

[00:31:18] I think

[00:31:19] To have had with us before

[00:31:21] And to talk through

[00:31:22] A very exciting app

[00:31:24] That they're building

[00:31:25] And they've built out

[00:31:25] And they're showcasing

[00:31:26] With many people

[00:31:28] But what we're trying to do

[00:31:29] Is this isn't a free promo push

[00:31:30] For Joe

[00:31:31] I'm sure I mentioned Nook

[00:31:32] More than once

[00:31:33] As I've done already

[00:31:34] What we're looking for is

[00:31:35] Some expert insights

[00:31:36] On what's happening in the market

[00:31:37] The moment because

[00:31:38] Payments is exploding

[00:31:39] It has been for a couple of years now

[00:31:41] But seems to be

[00:31:42] We've kind of half expected

[00:31:44] A bit of retraction with Comer

[00:31:45] And a couple of others

[00:31:46] Coming out of the market last year

[00:31:47] But it seems to have kicked on again

[00:31:49] This year

[00:31:49] And we're seeing more apps

[00:31:50] Coming into the market

[00:31:51] Promising to do all sorts of

[00:31:52] Wonderful things

[00:31:53] So Joe

[00:31:54] We're looking for your perspective

[00:31:55] On what's happening

[00:31:56] In the market at the moment

[00:31:57] Yeah, sure

[00:31:58] So I think

[00:31:59] When it comes to payments

[00:32:00] I guess a great steer

[00:32:02] For how important this is

[00:32:03] Zero's last investor update

[00:32:05] They've taken that three by three

[00:32:06] Framework I'm sure

[00:32:08] You've spoken about it

[00:32:09] On the podcast before

[00:32:11] But payments is a key job

[00:32:12] For both clients

[00:32:13] And bookkeepers and accountants

[00:32:15] It's a key part

[00:32:16] Of the job

[00:32:17] And therefore, yeah

[00:32:18] We've seen an explosion

[00:32:19] Of different offerings

[00:32:21] In payments

[00:32:22] I think one most recently

[00:32:23] Has been MIMO

[00:32:24] So yeah

[00:32:25] Great work

[00:32:25] Getting fundraising done

[00:32:27] For a fintech

[00:32:27] In a very challenging market

[00:32:29] And it's really

[00:32:30] The extension of a trend

[00:32:31] That we've seen

[00:32:33] Which is the unbundling

[00:32:34] Of activities traditionally done

[00:32:37] In banking products

[00:32:39] And accounting software

[00:32:40] That is the payment

[00:32:41] And then the reconciliation piece

[00:32:43] But the challenge

[00:32:44] I think all the providers have

[00:32:46] In this space

[00:32:46] Is that payments

[00:32:47] Is quickly becoming a commodity

[00:32:49] It's really table stakes

[00:32:50] But you've got an embedded offering

[00:32:52] Now with Cresco

[00:32:54] And the Xero partnership

[00:32:55] If you look over to the North American market

[00:32:57] Actually QuickBooks has kicked out

[00:32:59] Build.com Milio

[00:33:00] And they've got their own

[00:33:01] So-called current account

[00:33:02] That they've bundled into the offering

[00:33:05] And then we've had the comma exit

[00:33:07] We've had Libio exit at the UK market

[00:33:10] We've got Teluru

[00:33:11] We've got Nuke of course

[00:33:12] There's Apron

[00:33:13] Now MIMO

[00:33:14] And a few other players trying to enter

[00:33:16] So I think for all of the vendors

[00:33:18] Ourselves included

[00:33:19] It's about what is

[00:33:20] The next thing that you're going to evolve out of

[00:33:22] So with MIMO

[00:33:23] It's pretty clear

[00:33:23] They're pushing to the credit side

[00:33:25] In the financing

[00:33:26] For Nuke

[00:33:27] We're focusing very much on

[00:33:28] ERP workflows

[00:33:29] Collaboration and treasury

[00:33:31] With lending coming later

[00:33:32] Towards the year

[00:33:33] But I don't think you can remain solely focused

[00:33:35] On AP

[00:33:36] I think that's really going to become a feature

[00:33:38] Of the ERPs and the accounting software

[00:33:40] Yeah

[00:33:41] And you obviously mentioned that

[00:33:43] Xero featured it

[00:33:45] In their investor update

[00:33:46] And stuff

[00:33:46] Xero of course

[00:33:47] They've doubled in this themselves as well

[00:33:48] And obviously you mentioned

[00:33:49] They've got partnerships with Cresco now

[00:33:51] And have had partnerships with others in the past

[00:33:53] And I guess

[00:33:55] Someone might say

[00:33:56] They're interested in this

[00:33:56] Because there's some value in it to them as well

[00:33:58] In terms of

[00:34:00] Either increasing subscriber numbers

[00:34:01] Or getting a kickback from the feed

[00:34:03] I get mixed messages in the accounting market

[00:34:06] As to how important payments are

[00:34:09] Certainly maybe as a service line

[00:34:11] For an accountancy firm

[00:34:12] Clearly payments are important for businesses

[00:34:14] But is it just that

[00:34:16] It's a business problem

[00:34:17] That accountants are looking to latch on to

[00:34:19] And you guys are helping to make that a little bit easier

[00:34:21] Or are some of us just missing the point

[00:34:23] No, I don't think so

[00:34:24] I think there are just

[00:34:25] There are some firms that have adopted

[00:34:27] Payment as a service

[00:34:28] Or Accounts Payable as a service

[00:34:30] And they really want to offer

[00:34:31] A full outsource offering

[00:34:33] Maybe it's called Frasional FD

[00:34:34] Part-time FD

[00:34:36] And for those firms

[00:34:38] Of course payments is fundamental

[00:34:40] So they need a provider

[00:34:41] To be able to have this multi

[00:34:42] What we call multiplayer banking

[00:34:44] To be able to execute those payments

[00:34:45] And manage the entire

[00:34:46] Purchase to Pay workflow

[00:34:47] On behalf of the clients

[00:34:49] But yeah, there are a lot of other firms

[00:34:51] That have not adopted

[00:34:52] Payments stack

[00:34:53] Have not started a bottle revenue stream

[00:34:55] And don't see it as a priority

[00:34:57] I think the risk there is

[00:34:59] It's becoming more of a priority

[00:35:00] And therefore

[00:35:02] If you're a time poor owner operator

[00:35:05] And your accounting or bookkeeping firm

[00:35:07] Is not offering this as a service

[00:35:08] And you get pitched by a competitor

[00:35:11] Who is those Friday nights and weekends

[00:35:13] That you're downloading something from zero

[00:35:16] Working out what to type into the bank

[00:35:18] And start to think

[00:35:19] Okay, maybe I should get a solution

[00:35:20] And fix it myself

[00:35:21] Or perhaps

[00:35:22] I really want to push this to my accountant

[00:35:24] And I think that's

[00:35:25] Well, we're definitely going to see

[00:35:27] Yeah, that switch

[00:35:28] Here's Nathan

[00:35:29] I think you're actually correct with that

[00:35:30] It's early

[00:35:31] Certainly in the top 100

[00:35:33] We've got a few parts

[00:35:34] Shipped the top 100

[00:35:35] And it's pretty early there

[00:35:36] Even within the outsourcing team

[00:35:37] To those larger

[00:35:38] Yeah

[00:35:38] Larger and larger businesses

[00:35:40] And I guess

[00:35:41] For apps like yourselves and others

[00:35:42] There is a danger, isn't there

[00:35:44] Of maybe over egging

[00:35:44] The partner channel

[00:35:46] Through accountants

[00:35:47] You mentioned Libby Oncoma

[00:35:49] You've both exited fairly recently

[00:35:50] And they spent an incredible amount of money

[00:35:53] On marketing direct to

[00:35:54] Countants going to all the shows

[00:35:56] And doing all the stuff

[00:35:57] That we're now so familiar with

[00:35:59] You mentioned Mimo at the top there

[00:36:00] And they appear to have chosen

[00:36:02] That sort of direct to market routes

[00:36:04] And then offering something else

[00:36:06] Alongside payments

[00:36:08] And you yourself mentioned that

[00:36:10] Funding and lending

[00:36:11] Is going to be coming into your platform as well

[00:36:13] Do you think that's necessary now

[00:36:14] Let you say payments is a commodity

[00:36:16] Everyone's interested in lowest cost

[00:36:18] I guess we've seen that

[00:36:19] On the other side of the coin

[00:36:19] We striped and go carless

[00:36:21] And others being forced

[00:36:21] To keep their prices very low

[00:36:23] How do apps like yourselves

[00:36:25] Develop out something

[00:36:26] That's got some value

[00:36:26] That avoids that commodity pricing

[00:36:28] Or what else do you have to do

[00:36:29] Is it lending

[00:36:30] Is it funding some sort of

[00:36:31] Additional line that can be worked

[00:36:33] It's a great question

[00:36:34] And a challenge that anyone has

[00:36:36] Within the space that we operate

[00:36:37] And that is in Europe

[00:36:39] Distinct from North America

[00:36:40] Payments, the market price is free

[00:36:42] We can go and get a bank account

[00:36:44] We can go and see payments

[00:36:45] And they're free

[00:36:46] And therefore the price

[00:36:47] Of which you can charge for that

[00:36:48] If you're wrapping some additional service around it

[00:36:50] Is only decreasing

[00:36:52] And will decrease over time

[00:36:53] We have to find additional revenue streams

[00:36:55] Built around that core offering

[00:36:56] And this has always been our vision

[00:36:58] From the beginning

[00:36:59] AP is how we position today

[00:37:01] But the story has always been

[00:37:02] How do we build a comprehensive

[00:37:03] CFO operating system

[00:37:05] All-in-one financial operation system

[00:37:07] Whatever terminology you want

[00:37:09] And so the areas you can push into

[00:37:11] Are treasury, lending, cards

[00:37:13] Because there's a valuable interchange

[00:37:15] Over the extreme

[00:37:16] And all sort of enterprise ERP workflows

[00:37:19] So for some of our, for example

[00:37:20] Larger customers

[00:37:22] They're paying us 20 to 40 times

[00:37:24] More than they're paying zero for the license

[00:37:26] Because we're essentially giving them

[00:37:27] Something that they'd have to go and get

[00:37:28] From a net suite or a stage intact

[00:37:30] So there are different flavors

[00:37:32] Or directions one can go

[00:37:34] But I think, yeah

[00:37:35] It's becoming quickly monetized

[00:37:37] It's going to be table stakes

[00:37:38] So yeah

[00:37:39] All of the players within this space

[00:37:41] Are going to need to find

[00:37:43] The thing that they do next

[00:37:44] That helps them drive a higher ARPU

[00:37:45] And look, this is exactly the same

[00:37:47] As you said

[00:37:48] This is why zero is looking for that

[00:37:49] Is looking to increase its ARPU

[00:37:51] Seize payments as critical to that

[00:37:53] And yeah, it has a bill.com partnership in the US

[00:37:55] And one of us see one with Cresco now

[00:37:56] Here in the UK

[00:37:57] Obviously with payments being free

[00:37:59] That clearly challenges the business model

[00:38:01] For the likes of Cresco

[00:38:03] With that partnership

[00:38:04] And I guess bill.com is a little bit different

[00:38:06] In the States as you say

[00:38:08] Are you expecting more consolidation

[00:38:10] Or are you expecting more people to come into the market

[00:38:12] Because as I said at the top

[00:38:14] We thought we'd hit like

[00:38:15] Payment provider and then in the UK

[00:38:17] And now we've seen to us

[00:38:19] We're having a bit of research

[00:38:20] It's a great question

[00:38:21] When we ask ourselves on a sort of monthly basis

[00:38:24] Why are we seeing the unbundling of these activities

[00:38:26] And why are we seeing venture capital

[00:38:28] Money flow into these areas

[00:38:30] For us I think it's a reflection of how poorly served

[00:38:33] Accountants and decimie direct customers

[00:38:36] Have been by the banks

[00:38:38] Even the neo banks

[00:38:40] It's become much harder to be added

[00:38:42] To that account to run a bulk paper process

[00:38:44] To be able to get sort of graduated approvals

[00:38:47] The functionality from the likes of Starling

[00:38:49] And Allaker, Revolute, Amonso

[00:38:52] They have improved what you would get

[00:38:54] From one of the high street banks from the 90s

[00:38:56] But not to the point that we're seeing

[00:38:58] In the likes of our product

[00:38:59] Where you could add in

[00:39:00] For example some of our customers have 30 or 40

[00:39:03] Individuals from the business using the product

[00:39:05] So I think it's hard to say

[00:39:08] Whether we're going to see new entrants

[00:39:09] Of course it's quite saturated

[00:39:11] Maybe there will be some consolidation

[00:39:13] But I think to us it's pretty obvious

[00:39:16] Why investors are excited by this space

[00:39:18] And that is that payments are a gateway

[00:39:20] To these other lucrative revenue opportunities

[00:39:23] They're the core part of any treasury function

[00:39:25] Can you process money in?

[00:39:27] Can you process money out?

[00:39:28] And it's very distinct to the player

[00:39:32] The spend desks, the payhawks

[00:39:34] The spend management or card solutions

[00:39:36] That actually we now we're seeing

[00:39:38] Those players begin to think about AP as well

[00:39:42] So they've built huge businesses

[00:39:44] Some pre-IPO

[00:39:45] Some perhaps two IPO

[00:39:48] Around an interchange model

[00:39:49] But now they're thinking about sharing

[00:39:50] How do we capture more of that spend

[00:39:52] And they're thinking about adding on maybe

[00:39:54] So it's yeah for sure there'll be some consolidation

[00:39:57] At some points but yeah

[00:40:00] I think it's pretty clear why it's lucrative

[00:40:01] For why it's so low

[00:40:02] What the opportunity is there

[00:40:04] And the best kind of consolidation

[00:40:05] Has nook with a really good multiple

[00:40:07] Right

[00:40:07] That's always the way

[00:40:08] That's always the way, yeah

[00:40:10] Yeah thank you

[00:40:10] Yeah I'll send you the tenets in the post

[00:40:12] Or the checks in the post yeah

[00:40:13] Just talking about that AP

[00:40:15] Solutionary that we're seeing

[00:40:16] And maybe particularly with payment solutions

[00:40:18] That have been in the market

[00:40:20] Maybe moving backwards along the process chain

[00:40:22] Into the OCR space

[00:40:24] I know that's something that you guys have done

[00:40:26] And plenty of other apps have either started

[00:40:29] With that or explored that as well

[00:40:31] Does that add a different kind of challenge

[00:40:33] Because number one you've got a technological challenge

[00:40:35] Which is different payments

[00:40:36] But also you've got a market challenge

[00:40:38] Because of course the likes of Dexed

[00:40:40] Or to entry and a whole bunch of incumbents

[00:40:42] In a market like this

[00:40:43] Is that

[00:40:44] And I'm going to be sound crass here

[00:40:46] But is that sensible in terms of building the market share

[00:40:48] Or is it better just to actually partner with these guys

[00:40:50] And say look yes we can build technology

[00:40:52] That might be compete with you

[00:40:53] But actually that's a distraction from our core objective

[00:40:57] Now I feel like I should be paying for some free consulting

[00:40:59] But I think it's a very insightful point

[00:41:00] Which is that

[00:41:03] They are two distinct types of technology

[00:41:05] Whether it's OCR

[00:41:06] In fact we're just in the process of moving

[00:41:08] From OCR to using a large language model

[00:41:11] To do the document distraction

[00:41:12] Which we can come on to talk about if of interest

[00:41:14] But we've always said from the beginning

[00:41:18] That the payment is part of a bigger workflow

[00:41:21] And before that was we do some things in Dexed

[00:41:23] We do something in zero

[00:41:25] We do something in Slack or email

[00:41:26] And then we get to our bank

[00:41:28] And we start through our payments

[00:41:29] And then we go back to the ledger

[00:41:30] Right to some reconciliation

[00:41:31] So it is this bit in part of a bigger workflow

[00:41:34] And we've always maintained we wanted to give

[00:41:36] Accountants and customers

[00:41:38] The ability to do it in one product

[00:41:40] But also if you look at our customer base today

[00:41:43] It's about 50-50 in terms of people using our extractor

[00:41:47] And some of the market leading products

[00:41:49] Like auto entry and Dexed

[00:41:51] And the point you made is valid

[00:41:54] Which is that if you go and speak to a large firm

[00:41:57] They're going to have one of these products in place

[00:41:59] So it's a huge challenge

[00:42:00] Channel change management exercise

[00:42:02] To think about switching

[00:42:03] And not something that we would even encourage

[00:42:06] So that's why we're a modular solution

[00:42:08] We can sit alongside those nicely

[00:42:11] But I think we saw in a Dexed video update

[00:42:13] From one of the team there

[00:42:14] That they're thinking about payments as well

[00:42:16] So everyone's thinking across the same continuing

[00:42:19] About which part are they going to play

[00:42:20] And yeah, it's strange

[00:42:23] Because you have these weird competitive dynamics

[00:42:25] Where we're a partner in many businesses

[00:42:28] And so one could see an obvious go-to-market motion

[00:42:30] We could do together

[00:42:32] But then we're also competitive

[00:42:34] In one sense

[00:42:35] And that's true for the Accountants Office as well

[00:42:36] So it's a curious time for the app world, isn't it?

[00:42:40] And that's why your audience needs yourselves

[00:42:42] To steer them through it

[00:42:44] I think you're right

[00:42:44] I think it is curious

[00:42:45] And we're starting to see this kind of lateral spread

[00:42:49] Of apps along the process line

[00:42:51] Or something like that

[00:42:52] Which is interesting to see

[00:42:54] And also incredibly challenging

[00:42:56] I think it's more challenging actually for Accountants

[00:42:57] Than it is for businesses

[00:42:58] Because I think as a business

[00:43:00] If I had adopted Dexed and wanted to bring on Nook

[00:43:02] And then had a look at one of the products

[00:43:04] And said actually I can bring everything just into Nook

[00:43:06] I think that transformational change

[00:43:09] Part of making that decision

[00:43:11] Is a relatively low bar, right?

[00:43:12] I suspect

[00:43:13] But I think for Accountants

[00:43:14] If you're looking at them and they're saying

[00:43:15] I've got 200 clients on Dex

[00:43:17] For example, I can't possibly move all of those

[00:43:19] So it's much more drawn out thing

[00:43:21] Just going back to that

[00:43:22] Banks point that you made

[00:43:23] I quite enjoyed it

[00:43:24] Because you were slightly disbarging of the Neobanks

[00:43:26] Which is always good fun

[00:43:26] Because people always put them on a bit of a pedestal

[00:43:28] But you made that point about

[00:43:30] Some of your customers have maybe 30 or 40 people

[00:43:32] Involved in a payment approval process

[00:43:34] And no, well that's not possible with other banks

[00:43:36] Is that a consequence of technology?

[00:43:39] Or is that a consequence of regulation?

[00:43:40] Because I guess the banks with exceptions of the E-Money

[00:43:44] Businesses

[00:43:45] They're held to a much higher level of expectation

[00:43:49] Account regulation, etc

[00:43:51] Then maybe I would suggest that Nook and other payment providers are

[00:43:55] Yeah, I think it's a fair point that the

[00:43:59] There are regulations in place

[00:44:01] That mean it is harder for a bank

[00:44:04] With a banking license indeed an EMI

[00:44:06] To perhaps be as innovative

[00:44:10] With their offering versus agents of E-MIs

[00:44:14] But having said that

[00:44:16] The conversations we've had with accountants

[00:44:19] Individuals in risk and direct customers

[00:44:22] Is that the way that Nook operates with our wallet

[00:44:25] Which is an EMI account

[00:44:27] Actually gives the business more confidence

[00:44:31] Because we're not replacing their core bank

[00:44:33] So in a world where you just had the bank account

[00:44:36] You have to determine what is the correct permission set

[00:44:39] What are the correct individuals that need to be in dual approval

[00:44:41] For example, if you're in one of the corporate banking tours

[00:44:44] And even then that access is still binary

[00:44:46] So there's a risk there

[00:44:48] But if you're using a product like Nook

[00:44:50] But of course there are others that do this as well

[00:44:52] Actually you're increasing the control of the security

[00:44:54] And the auditability

[00:44:56] Because you're being able to add people from

[00:44:58] The warehouse from purchasing from marketing

[00:45:00] Who can come and approve things and see the lifecycle of that

[00:45:03] That invoice or purchase order

[00:45:05] And we think that gives greater visibility

[00:45:08] And therefore more control and reduces the risk

[00:45:12] So I think it is a fair challenge

[00:45:14] And I think the UK gets a lot of things wrong

[00:45:18] But what has done with this

[00:45:21] How it deals with EMI and the regulation there

[00:45:23] I think has been pretty forward thinking

[00:45:25] And has allowed businesses to be innovative

[00:45:27] And bring great solutions to market

[00:45:29] That go above and beyond what banks can do

[00:45:33] Yeah, I know I'm very conscious

[00:45:34] Like we I guess we've probably talked quite a lot about

[00:45:38] SMEs and probably the smaller end of that SME segment

[00:45:40] And you know you've already mentioned that

[00:45:42] You guys are doing stuff around ERP

[00:45:44] And that obviously has a different perspective on it

[00:45:47] But just going back to that point

[00:45:49] You were making about banks and payments

[00:45:51] And your ability to do that

[00:45:52] And both others

[00:45:54] Do you see an appetite and a willingness

[00:45:56] From say larger businesses to have an e-money account

[00:45:59] Sitting alongside their main bank accounts

[00:46:01] Or bank accounts as the case may be

[00:46:03] Or is there a sweet spot for you guys

[00:46:06] Which is let's say a 5-15 million business

[00:46:09] With a NatWest account for example

[00:46:11] Yeah, I was in with one of the largest banking groups on Tuesday

[00:46:14] And we were discussing this very point

[00:46:17] And the point was raised by the bank

[00:46:19] Why are people using this product

[00:46:20] It's actually they have to go and sign up again

[00:46:22] For another account

[00:46:24] Just what you were saying there

[00:46:25] It's so much friction

[00:46:26] And I turned this around and said

[00:46:27] This is precisely what they're lacking

[00:46:30] From your offering proposition today

[00:46:32] That's why they're going through their steps

[00:46:33] That's why they're waking up the UBOs

[00:46:35] And whatever country they happen to be

[00:46:36] Is why they're getting together

[00:46:37] The documents you require to onboard

[00:46:39] Because it's a bit of friction

[00:46:40] But what it unlocks

[00:46:41] Is something incredibly valuable to the business

[00:46:44] Which allows them to manage this

[00:46:46] In a completely different way

[00:46:48] So there's huge appetite for it

[00:46:49] And frankly most large organizations

[00:46:52] Are running multiple bank accounts already

[00:46:54] Or at least have multiple pots of money

[00:46:56] With different institutions

[00:46:57] Be that money market filings

[00:46:59] High interest savings accounts

[00:47:00] Different asset backed products

[00:47:02] So there's already multiple banking relationships

[00:47:04] In a large organization

[00:47:06] So it's not huge amounts of work

[00:47:08] For them to imagine having another relationship

[00:47:10] With a specialist provider

[00:47:12] Around APN payments I would say

[00:47:13] Yeah, that must be why

[00:47:15] Is it eBerry or whatever they're called

[00:47:17] They've been hassling me on LinkedIn recently

[00:47:19] They're determined to try and sell their services

[00:47:21] To my clients

[00:47:22] For international banking or whatever

[00:47:25] Great, the first time

[00:47:26] I called emailed here as well

[00:47:27] And you pretty kindly got back to me

[00:47:30] I must have done quite a big cold outbound campaign

[00:47:32] We had... I remember our first conversation very well

[00:47:35] Are you very kind to us

[00:47:36] That's true

[00:47:37] And yeah, lots of invades and products

[00:47:41] Are you complimenting me on the tune?

[00:47:43] That almost never happened

[00:47:46] Really?

[00:47:47] People relate to that

[00:47:48] In fact let's make sure we make a sound by just that

[00:47:51] I'm going to get a tattoo of it

[00:47:54] Yeah, you are

[00:47:55] We're going to put it in a huge card

[00:47:57] And then every time you open the card

[00:47:58] You can listen to Joe complimenting you

[00:48:01] That's a great business idea

[00:48:04] You could just have the...

[00:48:05] How great would it be?

[00:48:06] You just open the card and say,

[00:48:07] Hey, happy birthday

[00:48:07] And you just can open every time

[00:48:09] I just want to pivot back again to those banks and stuff

[00:48:11] And obviously you're having conversations with various banks here in the UK

[00:48:15] And I assume overseas as well

[00:48:18] Do you think maybe the New York banks are more...

[00:48:20] Better positioned for this

[00:48:21] But do you think that banks maybe should be looking to build out their own

[00:48:24] Like your systems and doing something with that

[00:48:27] And on top of that maybe putting their own capital into that

[00:48:32] And in a way that as we were talking about

[00:48:35] Is if you look at accounts payable for example

[00:48:37] You've got invoice data

[00:48:39] You've got purchase order data

[00:48:40] You've got a whole bunch of things at which you can lend against

[00:48:42] And you could use your balance sheet to provide against

[00:48:46] Do you think that's an opportunity?

[00:48:48] Is that a risk?

[00:48:49] Because zero aren't going to like that

[00:48:50] If Starling turned around and said

[00:48:52] Here's a great ecosystem of things that basically replace you

[00:48:55] That could be a good opportunity for someone like yourselves

[00:48:58] But it could also be an absolute nightmare

[00:49:00] I think it's a great question

[00:49:02] And what we talk to banks about is the following

[00:49:05] In the UK we're actually quite different to the rest of the world at the moment

[00:49:10] So in the UK we're quite fragmented

[00:49:12] We might have an accounts payable solution such as Nook, Playo

[00:49:16] We might have a payroll software

[00:49:18] Which also does payment execution

[00:49:19] We've then got some AR software

[00:49:21] Maybe Stripe

[00:49:22] Maybe some card processing

[00:49:23] And we've still got our core bank account

[00:49:25] So it and we've got of course our accounting ledger

[00:49:28] So in that world it's fragmented

[00:49:31] The bank still plays a very pivotal role

[00:49:34] It's holding deposits

[00:49:35] But if you look across the rest of the world

[00:49:37] So it's a couple of examples for the audience

[00:49:39] Stick at Quanto in France

[00:49:40] Look at Stark in Brazil

[00:49:42] Look at obviously what Quickboost is doing in the North American market

[00:49:46] And you're starting to see

[00:49:48] These emergence of a category of product

[00:49:50] Which has some of that sort of ERP data in

[00:49:53] Has the ability to take car payments perhaps

[00:49:55] Execute Treasury, send out AP

[00:49:58] And at that point what part is the bank playing

[00:50:01] What part does a Barclays or in that West play

[00:50:04] When there's a ramp or a Brex that's dominant across Europe

[00:50:09] And I think with the SOB crisis it was interesting

[00:50:11] Three billion of inflows into Brex

[00:50:13] Okay, it was still sizeably down on JP Morgan

[00:50:15] But it was 4,000 customers and a significant amount of deposits

[00:50:20] When that starts to happen in Europe

[00:50:21] I think you'll start to see banks wake up to that fact

[00:50:23] And of course a few of them have already recognised it

[00:50:26] And need to start looking at a bill by strategy

[00:50:28] You know what we do at Nook

[00:50:29] These are, these are, we help customers solve problems

[00:50:32] So those are problems that the banks are hyper aware of

[00:50:34] Because they've mapped this out

[00:50:35] We're not the first people to come up with this idea

[00:50:37] Of payment being part of a workflow

[00:50:38] They've mapped that out

[00:50:39] And they've gone back to okay

[00:50:41] What happens when you get the invoice

[00:50:42] What happens when you're trying to match it to a PO

[00:50:44] But they've always been sort of downstream

[00:50:46] And with this accounting player

[00:50:48] But there are other companies out there

[00:50:51] Have seen that opportunity, Quanto and Stark

[00:50:53] And do good examples

[00:50:54] So I think banks will begin to wake up to that

[00:50:57] Joe, that was super insightful

[00:50:59] So thank you so much for your time

[00:51:00] And who knows what the next six to 12 months

[00:51:03] Are going to hold for the accounting payments

[00:51:06] PO purchase ledger

[00:51:08] The whole works

[00:51:09] God only knows what's happening there

[00:51:10] I think we're going to see a shitload of extra competition

[00:51:13] And some interesting things happening

[00:51:15] That's for sure

[00:51:17] Yeah, for sure

[00:51:18] Look, I really appreciate you guys' time

[00:51:19] Thank you so much

[00:51:20] And yeah, looking forward to seeing them when this comes out

[00:51:22] Thank you, Jerry

[00:51:23] Thanks for joining us in today's podcast episode

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