The Underbelly of Accounting? || App News / Grace Hardy / AdvanceTrack

[00:00:00] I ended the evening by posting a TikTok. It got to the wrong side of TikTok and there were hundreds of comments objectifying and sexualising me because of what I wore.

[00:00:10] I made a LinkedIn post of putting some of the comments together. A lot of people were super supportive. Other people were saying how I was asking for it because of what I was wearing.

[00:00:19] Are there people in the accounting industry that you're finding doing that?

[00:00:24] Sometimes, yes.

[00:00:26] Rumors that HD are evaluating an IPO for Visma.

[00:00:31] Odoo, a Belgium-based open source ERP company, raised its valuation to 5.3 billion.

[00:00:37] Receipt bots bring line item extraction into their suite of products.

[00:00:42] Build HOPP, a Swedish fintech platform that allows businesses to pay their invoice using their credit cards, even when suppliers don't accept cards.

[00:00:50] Translucent, a whole bunch of releases. Michael Wood and the team has been extremely busy.

[00:00:55] Metro Bank, in total over 60 million transactions worth more than 51 billion were not on monitor. This is huge.

[00:01:03] I think the role of AI in this space and in regulatory oversight has never been more crucial.

[00:01:10] I just think that we're going to see more of it for the next one year consistently.

[00:01:14] Free agent, they did some research trying to identify what's the health of the industry in terms of its talent pipeline and what sort of future skills are needed for the profession.

[00:01:22] The fact that a fifth of the respondents said they feel they've experienced some kind of discrimination based on their gender or the colour of their skin and what not.

[00:01:30] I don't know if that's just the underbelly that's never been spoken about with accounting.

[00:01:36] Do you really think that the accounting industry is being commoditised or is it that you're being a little bit negative there and critical?

[00:01:43] When you're democratising knowledge, which is essentially what large language models do, knowledge no longer means anything.

[00:01:51] What's most important about our profession is around...

[00:01:55] Hello and welcome to another episode of the DigiTools in a Cruel World podcast.

[00:01:58] We are delighted as ever to be bringing to you a whole bunch of news, exciting updates,

[00:02:04] an interview with Grace Harvey that some of you I'm sure will be familiar with, but for anyone that doesn't know,

[00:02:09] here's a 21-year-old accountant making waves in our space and starting out her own business at that age and one of the standout stars from the AAT.

[00:02:21] So we're delighted to be able to have a chance to catch up with Grace and find out more about her background

[00:02:25] and how she ended up starting out life as an entrepreneur, so young.

[00:02:29] Also on this episode, we are joined once again by Fidpool Chef from Advanced Track,

[00:02:34] who's just going to be covering some topical thoughts and ideas around the accounting sector.

[00:02:39] And of course, just a reminder for anyone that doesn't know, Advanced Track is one of the leading providers

[00:02:44] of outsourcing, offshoring and podsourcing solutions for the UK accounting market.

[00:02:48] And of course, we've got some exciting highlights in terms of news and updates, including the big one potentially around Vismo,

[00:02:54] which we will touch on very shortly.

[00:02:56] But before we move on, I'm going to quickly jump over to Indy because Ryan has temporarily stepped out of the room

[00:03:03] because he's on that duty whilst he does a school pickup.

[00:03:07] But Indy, how are things for you?

[00:03:09] Marvellous!

[00:03:10] I am very much looking forward to seeing in the Christmas season this year.

[00:03:17] I've got such stress on the brain about presents

[00:03:22] and I already have present buying fatigue, even though I've not really started.

[00:03:27] So that's a little bit of a worry.

[00:03:28] They did just buy some tickets to see a comedian, not for me, but for one of the Christmas presents in my lineup.

[00:03:38] And they're really good tickets because they're the front row.

[00:03:42] Oh!

[00:03:43] I'm really anxious because they're a gift for someone.

[00:03:47] And I really hope that they don't just get hazed or insulted the whole show.

[00:03:52] I was going to say, picking front row tickets is guaranteed to get picked out by the person on stage

[00:03:57] and then you'll be absolutely sledged for the night.

[00:04:00] I would love it.

[00:04:01] And I know myself, I would just love it.

[00:04:04] But then you think to yourself, have I done the right thing?

[00:04:07] Anyway, I've bought them.

[00:04:08] It's too late now.

[00:04:09] Let's hope we have a good sense of humor on the night.

[00:04:12] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:13] Well, I guess it could be worse.

[00:04:16] You could be giving this gift to an accountant who's going to have to sit on the front row

[00:04:19] and then that's always a guaranteed pitch-take opportunity.

[00:04:23] Should we do that to Ryan?

[00:04:25] Oh, we should, yeah.

[00:04:26] What a great idea.

[00:04:28] Happy birthday and Christmas, Ryan.

[00:04:30] You're a grower.

[00:04:33] I think Ricky Gervais is touring.

[00:04:36] And so he's one.

[00:04:38] And then also the one that I bought, Paul Chowdhury.

[00:04:41] He's an Indian.

[00:04:42] Really funny.

[00:04:44] And so maybe we should try.

[00:04:46] Maybe we should give him some Paul Chowdhury tickets and really give him like a real, you know,

[00:04:52] Do you know what?

[00:04:53] What we should do is we should buy three tickets and then only give him the ticket in the middle.

[00:04:58] So it looks like he went, he was going to go with some friends and then they didn't turn up.

[00:05:02] Oh, ouch.

[00:05:04] I mean, that's a lot to spend on Ryan.

[00:05:06] Yeah, it is.

[00:05:08] Let's find an unknown comedian who's going to be just as insulting.

[00:05:12] Or we buy him one ticket and we auction off the other ticket to anyone who's listening for the highest bid.

[00:05:21] And then Ryan gets a surprise all the night to see who he's sat next to.

[00:05:25] It's kind of a win-win.

[00:05:27] Yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

[00:05:30] What would we accept for it?

[00:05:31] Bitcoin?

[00:05:32] I'd accept Bitcoin at the moment.

[00:05:33] Bitcoin is the way to go, Indy, to be fair.

[00:05:35] I mean, you know, after all, you know, anyone else who's got a Bitcoin fortune normally ends up with it in a landfill site somewhere in Stafford or Wales or wherever it is that this guy's trying to see to get his old computer dug up.

[00:05:48] Have you seen the tulip owners that basically thought they were just buying a pet rock and they're just like raking in now?

[00:05:55] Or the people that spent money on just like a pizza like five years ago.

[00:06:01] And now that piece would be worth like 100 million or something ridiculous.

[00:06:06] Yeah.

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:08] Well, this is, of course, the mild carnal books.

[00:06:11] Bitcoin is that everyone thinks it's a currency.

[00:06:13] It's not a currency.

[00:06:14] It's an investment.

[00:06:16] It's a currency.

[00:06:16] And that's why we don't spend money using investments because it's bonkers.

[00:06:21] Well, I really will be intrigued to see now next year, given that there is going to be a real change in terms of how regulation applies to these sorts of currencies, the impact that it's going to have on things like accounting for it.

[00:06:38] And I know that you're going to be ahead of the game, more ahead of the game than me on that.

[00:06:43] But, you know, it is it is intriguing because I think that's the way that we're going to have truly have digital digitally nomadic people, the borderless currency.

[00:06:55] But accounting for it, I reckon that's going to be one of the big topics of the year next year.

[00:07:00] You're going to cover that on an episode coming up with Ryan in terms of what you expect the big topics of the year to be.

[00:07:06] So we're not that's a little spoiler alert, but let's give it that.

[00:07:14] In that news today, I have some fairly big news.

[00:07:18] This is off the back of the whole HG shuffle with with Dext and Iris, you know, fairly recently.

[00:07:26] But also there are now rumors that HG are evaluating an IPO for Visma, which is a huge continental software group that many people will have heard of.

[00:07:39] Probably most in particular because they are now the owners of Silverfin.

[00:07:45] And, you know, HG bought into Visma.

[00:07:49] I think it's about almost 20 years ago.

[00:07:52] I could get the timing right. It's about 15, 20 years ago and they invested 500 million at the time.

[00:07:57] And they're potentially going to seek an IPO of 19 billion euros.

[00:08:01] Not quite sure which market they'll go on to at the moment because Visma are Norway based.

[00:08:10] And so Norway does have a market that they might go into.

[00:08:13] There are rumors it might look at London or possibly one of the European markets, I guess, most likely Germany.

[00:08:18] And there's a reasonable timescale on this because they're expecting this to happen probably around 2026.

[00:08:24] So they've given themselves a year to kind of get the due diligence and everything else that's required to get into a market.

[00:08:31] And I guess assess which market would give them the biggest uplift.

[00:08:34] But, you know, if HG were to exit Visma, that would be absolutely huge.

[00:08:38] And obviously would bring one of the biggest, possibly the biggest European software vendor onto a known and recognized market.

[00:08:48] And then obviously would pitch it up against the likes of Sage, QuickBooks, Xero, et cetera, who are on recognized stock exchanges dotted around the world.

[00:08:57] Good to hear.

[00:08:58] And another bit of interesting news from Odoo, a Belgium based open source ERP company that's raised its valuation to 5.3 billion.

[00:09:07] This is a secondary share round led by Alphabet's capital G and Sequoia Capital.

[00:09:12] Odoo has remained cash profitable and has been growing revenue at a remarkable 50% year on year, despite only being the open source software.

[00:09:21] And they continue to challenge the dominance of giants like SAP and offer 80 applications from everything in accounting to HR to e-commerce to software built to website building at a really affordable price point.

[00:09:37] And it's a big contrast to more complex and expensive systems like SAP that are effective for the larger side of the market, but often really costly for smaller businesses.

[00:09:48] And billings last year of $370 million and they're currently on track to reach $650 million in 2025 with a targeted, with a target, sorry, of 1 billion by 2027.

[00:10:08] So the platform is, is fairly unique in terms of where the business comes from.

[00:10:16] And it's clear differentiator in the market is the fact that it is open sourced and 80% of its business comes from free software.

[00:10:25] And Fabian Pincaires, who is the founder of Odoo has said that they have continued to expand the global presence in India.

[00:10:36] They focused on long term growth over the short term growth or IPO plans.

[00:10:42] And despite being on the path for IPO, they prefer the flexibility of staying private.

[00:10:48] So I have a little update from Receipt Bot.

[00:10:51] They're an invoice scanning tool for anyone that's not too familiar with them.

[00:10:54] And their latest feature is to bring line item extraction into their suite of products or into their suite of features rather.

[00:11:02] And I guess for anyone that's familiar with how line item extraction works, it's going to work in Receipt Bot in a fairly similar way.

[00:11:08] So you're going to be able to scan in your invoices, get all those individual lines from the invoices.

[00:11:14] And it's got some intelligence behind it to make sure that where, for example, you've got line items where the VAT isn't particularly clear,

[00:11:20] they're going to try and match that so that when you get to the bottom, if you've got a mixed rate invoice, for example,

[00:11:26] that you'll be able to make sure that the VAT extracted and extrapolated for those line items adds back to the total VAT on the invoice.

[00:11:32] And they've also got some clever little tricks around cleaning up the description so you don't get kind of like crazy, messy descriptions.

[00:11:40] Or if it's not too clear where lines start and end, they've got some intelligence around trying to fix that.

[00:11:45] So you're not getting sort of like weird hangover nonsense from the line above coming into the first line of the next item.

[00:11:53] And they've also got a bunch of validation checks as well just to, again, just clear up any errors and stuff like that.

[00:11:58] And this is particularly useful if you're in an organization where you do need to track multivated items, for example,

[00:12:05] if you're buying and selling clothing, which has got a mix of adults and children's clothing,

[00:12:09] particularly if you're buying that and then reselling it, that's always helpful to do.

[00:12:12] And anything stock related or inventory related, you normally want to get line items out.

[00:12:17] Also, if you're involved in the construction industry and using CIS scheme, quite often you want to have line item attraction enabled as well.

[00:12:25] So some neat little features there from Receipt Bot.

[00:12:29] Nice. So we're talking Bill Hop as well for a moment, a Swedish fintech platform that allows businesses to use to pay their invoice using their credit cards,

[00:12:38] even when suppliers don't accept cards.

[00:12:40] So it's a great little way to manage cash flow, which is often a challenge in most businesses.

[00:12:45] And with traditional B2B payments, most rely on bank transfers, credit cards, etc.

[00:12:51] And they're underutilized.

[00:12:53] So Bill Hop bridges that gap by acting as an intermediary between the businesses and suppliers,

[00:12:58] letting companies use their credit cards for a range of different payments from supplier invoices to taxes,

[00:13:04] even things like the office rental.

[00:13:06] I did look at this space actually quite a while back.

[00:13:10] And there was, you know, in particular, having been at Bankable for some time,

[00:13:14] we looked at how complex it can be to have like these cards that perhaps are preloaded or pre funded with different amounts of money

[00:13:27] so that the cards can be used on any type of business expense by the employees.

[00:13:33] But then what happens is you're tying quite a lot of the cash up into something or you've got like, you know,

[00:13:40] we've seen you've got credit cards, but they aren't utilized in the same way.

[00:13:43] So we had this, you know, we had many different conversations where you can bring your own credit or use it to pay off invoices

[00:13:53] and very much in the same way that Bill Hop have suggested.

[00:13:57] I think this is this is going to be a trend going forward because I can see that the schemes like MasterCard and Visa would want to obviously leverage in some way

[00:14:06] the utilization of whatever that credit or whatever that money is, and they kind of want to stay relevant.

[00:14:13] So I'm not sure if you guys have come across many of your clients using this type of cash flow management for like how they're managing their business.

[00:14:21] But what do you think?

[00:14:23] I think for a lot of organizations, particularly smaller ones, it's always appeals because quite often, you know,

[00:14:29] you might not necessarily have the cash in the bank if you if you're fairly new in particular, you might not have your cash flow cycle operating in the way that you want to.

[00:14:37] So being able to put it onto a card is always helpful and it just gives you a bit more flexibility.

[00:14:44] But I do totally agree with you like prepaid cards do tend to put off quite a lot of organizations because that just means you're tying up cash,

[00:14:51] you know, which could be used elsewhere in the organization.

[00:14:54] I have a little bit from Translucent, which is a whole bunch of releases.

[00:14:59] So the first one is Michael Wood has been extremely busy on the team over the last few months because they've been chucking stuff out into the market with unnerving regularity, it's fair to say.

[00:15:10] And the kind of core focus of these three new updates has been really around trying to just enhance some of the functionality that's probably missing or that becomes a bit challenging for organizations, particularly that are using Xero.

[00:15:24] And the first one is around having the ability to audit the tracking categories that you use across a multi entity group.

[00:15:33] And this is particularly important because if you're trying to do consolidated reporting and you've got tracking categories enabled,

[00:15:39] but those tracking categories are not consistent across the board, it just makes your data messy and makes it really challenging to report it.

[00:15:46] So you've now got the ability to visualize that and then go, right, have we got consistency across the group?

[00:15:50] And if we haven't got consistency, how do we go about fixing that?

[00:15:54] The other thing that they've added, which is building on top of tracking categories in Xero, is the ability to add more tracking categories.

[00:16:01] And essentially for anyone that's familiar with Xero, you can have four sets of tracking categories, which all have 100 subcategories within them,

[00:16:09] but you're only allowed to enable two of those at any one time.

[00:16:11] And that does place inherent limitations on what you can do in Xero, particularly relevant, I think more so for not for profit organizations.

[00:16:19] But again, the example that Michael was talking about was where maybe you want to track, say, a customer type against a branch,

[00:16:29] and then you want to try and do that against the product type, you can't do that in Xero at the moment.

[00:16:33] So they've added the ability to add six additional tracking categories in their group, each with up to 250 options or subcategories within that.

[00:16:42] So there's a massive, massive gain in terms of what you can do within Xero.

[00:16:47] And then the final little bit was, again, just replacing some functionality or enhancing some of the functionality that's missing in Xero, which is around the granularity of permissions.

[00:16:56] I think if you're a Xero user, the user access controls that are in there is one of its biggest weaknesses at the moment.

[00:17:03] And Xero definitely needs to address this.

[00:17:05] But Translucent have gone about doing this so that you can effectively have granular access to tracking categories, account codes.

[00:17:14] You can set up different roles and allow them to have access to specific things as well.

[00:17:18] So it means you can kind of group people in your organization or across a wider group into particular roles without having to set those permissions at an individual level,

[00:17:28] which also could be incredibly time consuming when you're working with a larger, say, finance group or a larger group of stakeholders who are interested in seeing the data.

[00:17:36] So something from Metro Bank, which I have a feeling we may have covered before on our previous app news.

[00:17:43] But if we haven't, I'm going to cover it again anyway.

[00:17:45] So it's from Metro Bank, who initially implemented an automated system to track suspicious activity, but had serious flaws in the setup operation.

[00:17:55] And that oversight went unnoticed for years.

[00:17:59] And in total, over 16 million transactions worth more than 51 billion were not monitored.

[00:18:04] The oversight stems from an error in the bank's core system, which prevented records of certain transactions from being fed into the monitoring system.

[00:18:14] The issue was first identified during the upgrade in April 2019.

[00:18:20] And despite acknowledging the product problem, Metro Bank took over a year to fully address the issue.

[00:18:25] I don't think that that in itself is not uncommon because these things do take time as you have a live system running.

[00:18:33] But even after fixing the issue in July 19, the bank did not then implement other consistent checks to ensure transactions were properly monitored until December 2020.

[00:18:45] So, I mean, this is huge.

[00:18:47] The fund has been issued by the FCA and it highlights the ongoing challenges that financial institutions face in ensuring their sort of robust anti-money laundering systems with banks like Metro failing to meet the compliance standards for such an extended period of time.

[00:19:03] I think the role of AI in this space and in regulatory oversight has never been more crucial.

[00:19:10] And in the past, this sort of thing has been has been left to go unnoticed.

[00:19:15] But I think that we're about to see a rocket speed of how AI is going to help and the tools that can then significantly enhance their transaction monitoring or flagging of suspicious activities in real time.

[00:19:27] Because that's the sort of thing that would have probably prevented this from being such a huge penalty.

[00:19:34] But I think regulators will continue to kind of crack down and hopefully they will be helped along by having better access to tools and software that puts businesses on the right side of the law.

[00:19:48] So, really, like, again, I'm speculating here and I know we're giving another spoiler away, but I reckon this is also going to be a big one for next year.

[00:19:59] So, I'm going to leave that for a later episode.

[00:20:02] But I really do think that AML plus AI plus regulators, something in that is going to be a trigger point for next year that we will see a lot more of these things where in the past they've gone unnoticed for such a long period of time.

[00:20:20] I think that we're about to see a much shorter lead time to seeing these penalties being issued.

[00:20:26] Well, there's a reason why this feels oh so familiar to you, Indi, and we didn't cover this on a previous podcast, but we did cover the episode of Starling Bank falling foul of something almost entirely the same.

[00:20:37] And we have covered, of course, Revolut, you know, just basically ignoring the AML rules for so long.

[00:20:44] So, you know...

[00:20:45] Yeah, I felt like it was deja vu.

[00:20:47] And I thought, I'm sure we've covered this, but you're right.

[00:20:49] That was two other banks.

[00:20:51] And that's why I think that is it a coincidence that we're seeing a shortening of this lead time?

[00:20:56] I think it's only going to get more frequent.

[00:20:59] And so this whole compliance piece around AML, ID verification, deep fakes as well being a real issue.

[00:21:08] I just think that we're going to see more of it for the next one year consistently.

[00:21:12] And I think it's probably also a sign of how important now the sort of challenger banks have become in the marketplace.

[00:21:18] And clearly they're subject to the same scrutiny that many others are, but it's just an increasing challenge in this space.

[00:21:27] Finally, we'll move on to a little bit of news, which has come about from some work done by free agents.

[00:21:36] And they did some research.

[00:21:37] They surveyed around about 337 accountants and bookkeeping professionals.

[00:21:42] And they were really just trying to identify, you know, what's the health of the industry in terms of its talent pipeline

[00:21:47] and what sort of future skills are needed for the profession.

[00:21:50] And I think this comes at a really interesting time because some similar research has been done in the UX for the AICPA.

[00:21:57] And the results that came in were very, very similar.

[00:22:01] Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not entirely sure, but you're fascinating nonetheless.

[00:22:08] But the main bits that they found from the research was that there'd been a fairly sharp decline in the number of students choosing to pursue accounting qualifications.

[00:22:18] Some of the obstacles that they found was around the negative stereotypes.

[00:22:22] Fifty one percent, sorry, 57.1 percent of respondents cited that negative stereotypes are putting them off from joining the industry.

[00:22:31] 47.1 percent said high education costs were an issue and a reason.

[00:22:35] I find that really fascinating because essentially in the accounting world, there are no education costs.

[00:22:40] You can join the accounting world from school, from college, and you don't have to do an accounting degree to get into our space.

[00:22:46] But once you get into a practice, the education costs are free because every practice pays for them and most of them are covered under apprenticeship anyway.

[00:22:53] So they're not going to be contributing significant costs.

[00:22:56] There's a lengthy qualification process, which we're aware about, and that put off around about 41.9 percent.

[00:23:01] But again, the interesting contrast between here in the U.S., where that's a similar issue, is that in the U.S., you have to do an accounting degree.

[00:23:10] Generally, you have to do that to at least bachelor's, but now more typically to a master's level.

[00:23:13] But once you've done that, there's usually only about 12 to 18 months post-graduation process to gain some real-world experience before you're fully qualified.

[00:23:23] Whereas in the U.K., of course, even if you do a degree, you've still got to do three years of professional qualification before you qualify.

[00:23:29] But I don't think that's a significant barrier because you're working, you're doing it alongside everything else.

[00:23:36] And the process can be shortcut if you wanted to.

[00:23:39] It's just that you've got to get the hours required to gain that.

[00:23:43] There were then some other factors, such as a lack of understanding about professions, diverse opportunities, which put off about 37 percent.

[00:23:51] And limited access to apprenticeships or internships, 28 percent.

[00:23:54] Again, I find that really, really fascinating because every accounting practice that I know up and down the line only does their training through apprenticeships or internships.

[00:24:03] So either practices are not looking for opportunities.

[00:24:06] And so people, you know, people who are interested in coming into the market are not there.

[00:24:10] In which case, that's not a problem with people not wanting to get into the industry.

[00:24:15] That's a problem with practices not willing to advocate for the industry and not willing to invest and open themselves up, which is short-sighted.

[00:24:22] There was some other stuff as well, which touched on that around about 20 percent of accountants have experienced discrimination or bias based on their gender, race, ethnicity or sexual orientation.

[00:24:34] And that, again, is really concerning.

[00:24:36] I mean, unfortunately, the accounting sector does have a rather traditional view in terms of it's represented by old white men like myself and Ryan.

[00:24:45] And there genuinely isn't enough diversity in our space.

[00:24:49] And that should be encouraged.

[00:24:51] And the things that were suggested that could improve these things was around offering more flexible and remote working opportunities, which I think we do have in the industry.

[00:24:58] Although, again, there's a general movement to try and encourage people back into the office, you know, not just in our industry, but in others.

[00:25:04] And I heavily push against that because I don't think it's entirely warranted.

[00:25:08] Things around improving transparency around pay and promotions.

[00:25:12] Completely agree with this.

[00:25:13] I think the accounting sector is terrible at those kind of things.

[00:25:16] And then improving things like hiring practices and how we mentor and coach people in our organization and enhanced leave policies and encouraging more accountability in our sector.

[00:25:25] And I think all of those only lead to improvements around the level of professionalism, the level of responsibility we take.

[00:25:34] And I think that just turns us into a better profession in general.

[00:25:40] And then last but not least, the final couple of things on here was that when asked what accounting skills will change over the next three to five years, 69% of respondents said that greater technological knowledge would be needed to work with new software and processes.

[00:25:52] And 61% specifically call out the need for better understanding of AI and smart data technology.

[00:25:57] And then interestingly, and again, this is really controversial, I think 57% called out the need for greater technology and expertise in order to meet new legislative changes.

[00:26:06] The irony there is that if you've got access to great technology like AI, you don't need to know knowledge.

[00:26:11] The knowledge economy in our space is being decimated by AI and the ability to be able to find that data at your fingertips means that you no longer need to be an expert.

[00:26:19] So I think there's some weird contradiction in the data there, which is fascinating to see.

[00:26:25] Weesh, John.

[00:26:27] My God, impress me with your stats, John.

[00:26:31] But all of that to say, oh, I had so much, so many things I could have jumped in to say, actually.

[00:26:37] That last point, do you really think that the accounting industry is being commoditized in that sense?

[00:26:45] That, you know, like the expertise and knowledge is at the drop of the keyboard of a little GPT search?

[00:26:51] Or is it that, you know, you're being a little bit negative there and critical?

[00:26:56] No, I don't think I'm being negative.

[00:26:57] I mean, we're already getting clients that are coming to us saying, I look this up on ChatGPT.

[00:27:01] Now, they used to do that a few years ago on Google and a few years before that used to be the man down the pub.

[00:27:06] But I genuinely do think, you know, when you're democratizing knowledge, which is essentially what large language models do,

[00:27:15] is that when you operate a knowledge economy, which is what professionals like myself do,

[00:27:20] knowledge no longer means anything because everyone's got access to the same level of knowledge.

[00:27:25] It's there literally at the end of a keyboard.

[00:27:27] You know, if you type in the right prompt or you do the right query, you'll get the knowledge and the information you need.

[00:27:32] What's most important about our profession is around how we deliver that knowledge, how we interpret that knowledge,

[00:27:38] how we tailor that knowledge so it's particular for the circumstances of the individual that's sitting across the table from us

[00:27:43] or is on the end of the call that we're dealing with, how that's relevant to them, their personal circumstances,

[00:27:48] their business circumstances, you know, and ultimately how we make that personal connection.

[00:27:53] So I think this need, this 57% of people who think that you need to have greater tax knowledge

[00:27:58] or greater tax experience or whatever it is, it's rubbish.

[00:28:03] Again, it's a perception.

[00:28:04] And let's, you know, this is really talking about those who are citing something that they perceive to be a negative stereotype.

[00:28:13] So maybe it is that you're taking here the respondents and you're looking at the profile of the respondents,

[00:28:21] which I'd be fascinated to know more about the underlying in terms of who formed part of that

[00:28:25] and whether it was representative as well, because the fact that a fifth of the respondents said

[00:28:30] they feel they've experienced some kind of discrimination based on their gender or the colour of their skin and whatnot.

[00:28:38] I mean, I don't know if I would say that that's just atypical, like the sort of underbelly

[00:28:47] that's never been spoken about with accounting, but it's not that long ago that I remember talking to some of the

[00:28:53] accountants in this space and they were saying when they first went into practice,

[00:28:57] you never hired a woman who had just got married because you knew that they were going to have a baby

[00:29:04] or that they could be having a baby.

[00:29:06] And so there was always this, you know, perception of that.

[00:29:09] That was not that long ago.

[00:29:11] I think there's a really dark past.

[00:29:13] And I think that actually when you look at the profiles of people who have maybe responded,

[00:29:19] I'd be so fascinated to know what profile they are in terms of just the whole thing, you know, age, gender, profile in general,

[00:29:29] and how long they've been in the industry because it is changing so quickly.

[00:29:33] So I think there's a big bit of like every industry has got to play catch up now with AI, every single one.

[00:29:42] So I don't think that's very unique.

[00:29:44] But what is also the case is like, you know, we're going into a more diverse world.

[00:29:49] If you just look at the schools and you look at the children in all of the schools now,

[00:29:56] it's far more diverse than it ever was.

[00:29:59] So that's, I think by virtue of the fact that we just don't see that in all of our other relative industries,

[00:30:06] that that part, that is going to be inevitable.

[00:30:09] And I think it's just up to the industry to change the negative stereotype perception.

[00:30:15] I, as a fan, I'm quite a fan of just that, you know, accountant, glasses, calculator, you know,

[00:30:24] like middle-aged kind of person.

[00:30:26] Yeah, oh, hang on, there's two of you right here.

[00:30:30] I agree with you.

[00:30:31] I mean, I think it's fair to say that this survey is probably not representative in terms of numbers

[00:30:36] because there was only 337 respondents.

[00:30:40] You know, there's over 40,000 practices in the UK which employ, you know, at least one or more people.

[00:30:47] You know, I think members of the ICAW, there comes to approximately, is it 120,000, 160,000?

[00:30:54] I can't remember exactly.

[00:30:55] Obviously, you've then got ACCA, AAT and a whole bunch of others.

[00:30:58] So, not representative at all of the overall market.

[00:31:02] But I do think incredibly concerning if 20% of people have suffered some kind of, you know,

[00:31:13] anything really, abuse, segregation, whatever it might be.

[00:31:16] You know, I don't think that's acceptable at all.

[00:31:20] Again, as you say, indeed, you know, there have been past practices in our world

[00:31:23] which have not been acceptable for a long time.

[00:31:26] And unfortunately, when you've got old grey-white men running practices,

[00:31:30] then these things do stick around for a long time.

[00:31:32] Well, every industry, John, I mean, like, it's the same in tech.

[00:31:35] It's arguably the same in most, you know, you just look at the political representatives.

[00:31:41] You could go down many rabbit holes with this.

[00:31:43] This is a common problem.

[00:31:44] This is not new.

[00:31:46] And it takes time to solve.

[00:31:48] And I just think that, I look at this and I just think it's sad.

[00:31:53] But in order to change it, you've got to be the change you want to see, as Gandhi says.

[00:31:58] So, hopefully, we can see more representation.

[00:32:02] And I think, as you were talking about in the previous app news,

[00:32:06] from, like, the numbers that were shared with Sage, for instance,

[00:32:10] and their policies on DEI.

[00:32:11] I know Xero has been very vocal and proactive about this as well.

[00:32:15] And we've got some really great people in the industry

[00:32:18] that are now being far more vocal and educational

[00:32:22] about how to talk about things in a more open way

[00:32:26] without then offending or causing something that, you know, might be a rupture.

[00:32:31] So, I think this is a really good step in the right direction.

[00:32:35] Awareness is key.

[00:32:36] So, it's great to hear the stats that are out there.

[00:32:38] And it would be good to kind of see that,

[00:32:41] be a bit more representative of the people in our world.

[00:32:46] Agreed.

[00:32:46] Completely.

[00:32:47] Well, I think that's a perfect time to wrap things up, don't you think, Indy?

[00:32:52] Well, I should wrap it up because Brian's sitting there

[00:32:54] like a little bamby-eyed, doe-eyed deer going,

[00:32:59] I don't know what I'm meant to say.

[00:33:05] Well, I am delighted to say I'm joined yet again by Vipul from Advanced Track.

[00:33:10] And let's just take one of the key stats that we saw from the research

[00:33:13] that you guys did, Vipul,

[00:33:15] which was that partner hours have increased by over 20% in 42% of firms,

[00:33:20] which obviously has an impact and it leads to sort of stress and burnout.

[00:33:24] One of the challenges in maybe this work-life balance thing

[00:33:26] is that it's also having a detrimental impact

[00:33:28] on the appeal of accounting to younger people.

[00:33:31] And that people maybe are seeing the opportunities

[00:33:34] of going to work for Google or an Amazon or something like that

[00:33:37] has been a little bit more sexy and a bit more engaging.

[00:33:40] And yet, you know, those firms are generally enforcing rules

[00:33:45] around making people come back to the office.

[00:33:47] And yet a lot of accounting practices are still sort of operating

[00:33:51] fairly effectively in this hybrid model,

[00:33:53] you know, maybe two or three days a week.

[00:33:54] And surely that in itself has an attractiveness

[00:33:58] from managing work-life balance.

[00:33:59] And I wonder why maybe that isn't getting across in those perceptions.

[00:34:04] Or is it just the fact that you go and work for Google and Amazon

[00:34:07] and they've got great brand names and probably pay you exceptionally well.

[00:34:10] And that's simply not enough in terms of saying,

[00:34:13] oh, we've got this hybrid working.

[00:34:14] Yeah, I think, you know, in the report,

[00:34:17] it does show how much less accounting graduates and qualified accountants

[00:34:26] are paid compared to their peers who are in different careers,

[00:34:31] even associated.

[00:34:33] You know, if you're a financial analyst or a data analyst,

[00:34:36] you will be paid 40, 50% more than an equivalent in accounting practice.

[00:34:44] So I think there is an element of that.

[00:34:46] But you're absolutely right that as a profession,

[00:34:51] there's an awful lot of firms that are doing this 3 plus 2, 4 plus 1,

[00:34:57] or a mix, you know.

[00:34:59] And I was at a managing partner meeting earlier this week,

[00:35:04] and most of them have said,

[00:35:06] we actually want all our trainees to come in to the office

[00:35:11] because they're actually sat alongside somebody who is more experienced,

[00:35:17] who can share their knowledge,

[00:35:19] and those water cooler moments.

[00:35:22] And they're much more likely to ask because they're sat there.

[00:35:27] I certainly found that when I was rising up the ranks

[00:35:32] that there were a group of people I played cricket with,

[00:35:35] played football with, went to the pub with,

[00:35:37] or just wondered to get lunch with.

[00:35:41] And so that made my day so much more palatable.

[00:35:46] You don't mind getting hard if you've got good people around you

[00:35:50] that you like spending time with.

[00:35:51] I was in the States in the summer,

[00:35:52] and the AICPA have gone through this whole thing

[00:35:55] about how to try and make the accounting practice over there

[00:35:58] more attractive.

[00:36:00] They've obviously spoken about some of the challenges

[00:36:01] we've just discussed in terms of graduates not getting paid

[00:36:05] and equivalent salaries to join firms.

[00:36:07] But there is a consequential effect here, right?

[00:36:09] Is that if we say that instead of taking on a graduate

[00:36:12] at 30, 40, 50 grand a year,

[00:36:14] we're going to start taking them on at 100 grand a year,

[00:36:17] that has a huge impact for an accounting practice

[00:36:19] because no matter what we tell everyone,

[00:36:21] we still charge our clients based on the time inputs.

[00:36:24] And if we're doubling the salary costs

[00:36:26] or more of the cost of production,

[00:36:28] then we're going to have to do something on a fee level.

[00:36:32] And particularly if clients are asking for more and more from us,

[00:36:35] in the US, they can probably get away with that a bit more

[00:36:38] because they have a much more commercial market.

[00:36:40] But in the UK, we're always talking about pricing

[00:36:43] and accountants never getting it right.

[00:36:45] And we're always trying to compete with each other

[00:36:47] on dropping prices rather than increasing prices.

[00:36:50] So do you think that's feasible in the market?

[00:36:52] I think you just have to look at the lawyers.

[00:36:55] If you look at what the large law firms are doing to attract graduates in,

[00:37:00] what have they done?

[00:37:01] They've done exactly that.

[00:37:02] And maybe they're in a position to do so,

[00:37:05] but have we undervalued what we as a profession do?

[00:37:10] And my answer to that is, yes, we have always undervalued what we do.

[00:37:14] And anyone who's heard me talk about why I ever came into the profession,

[00:37:20] the man who was my parents' accountant understood what his value was

[00:37:26] and he charged accordingly.

[00:37:27] And he's been retired, what now, over 30 years.

[00:37:33] And he retired at 55.

[00:37:36] So I think if you understand that what we're doing is not a set of accounts,

[00:37:42] and it's our tagline, accountants change lives,

[00:37:45] but not by producing a set of accounts.

[00:37:47] And if we understand that, yeah, that we're not providing a set of accounts,

[00:37:53] we're actually providing genuine financial advice

[00:37:56] based on the individual requirements of a business and its owners.

[00:38:03] I think if we do that, it's much more easy to justify the fee

[00:38:09] that we present to our clients rather than saying,

[00:38:13] oh, well, we'll do your accounts and that's £500 or £1,000

[00:38:17] or whatever we might think it is.

[00:38:19] It's actually saying, actually, you have access to the partners and managers

[00:38:24] and actually, isn't that a much more interesting job for us to do

[00:38:29] and more fulfilling?

[00:38:30] We're always interested in hearing from you, the audience,

[00:38:33] in terms of what is it that you're trying to do to alleviate pressure at the top,

[00:38:37] to make that work-life balance a bit more effective in your organisations.

[00:38:42] Maybe you're doing mentoring, a little bit of coaching, those kind of things.

[00:38:45] And also, what else can we do as a profession

[00:38:48] to make the world a little bit more attractive to future people

[00:38:51] wanted to consider coming into us rather than going to work for Google

[00:38:54] or Facebook or whatever it might be?

[00:38:56] We'd really love to hear your thoughts

[00:38:57] and let us know what you are doing to make the world

[00:39:00] a little bit of a better place.

[00:39:02] Brilliant. Thank you.

[00:39:08] So we're delighted to be joined today by Grace Hardy,

[00:39:12] who, those of you who haven't come across her,

[00:39:14] where have you been?

[00:39:15] Because she's obviously everywhere at the moment, aren't you, Grace?

[00:39:18] Grace, and also joined by John, as usual,

[00:39:23] who is going to be our resident boomer for all of this conversation

[00:39:26] and talk to us about the male perspective or some of the things.

[00:39:29] Grace, congratulations.

[00:39:30] You just won your award last week,

[00:39:32] especially given that you're just starting up

[00:39:35] and that you've gone into that big world

[00:39:38] and there's been a little bit of a mixed sort of review, I guess,

[00:39:41] around how that's been received.

[00:39:43] But it's a hearty congrats from me anyway and John.

[00:39:46] Thank you.

[00:39:47] Yeah.

[00:39:48] Tell us more about the award.

[00:39:50] So I was very privileged and grateful

[00:39:52] to win the special recognition award

[00:39:54] for the Department for Education

[00:39:55] on all the work I do around apprenticeships

[00:39:59] and telling my story, which was brilliant.

[00:40:01] And then I ended the evening by posting a TikTok

[00:40:05] in my dress and a coat with my award.

[00:40:08] Just a joke.

[00:40:10] It was lighthearted how humbling it is to win an award

[00:40:12] and then having to get the tube home at midnight,

[00:40:15] which I thought was hilarious.

[00:40:17] Anyway, it got to the wrong side of TikTok

[00:40:19] and there were hundreds of comments objectifying

[00:40:23] and sexualising me because of what I wore,

[00:40:26] which to me was outrageous because it's an awards evening,

[00:40:28] so obviously you're going to wear a dress.

[00:40:30] But it didn't go down very well.

[00:40:32] And that doesn't sit well with me

[00:40:34] because those sort of things should be called out.

[00:40:36] I do on a regular basis.

[00:40:38] So I made a LinkedIn post of putting some of the comments

[00:40:40] together on a screenshot of the video.

[00:40:42] I posted it on LinkedIn to talk about the pros and cons

[00:40:45] of social media because that are,

[00:40:47] and how objectifying and sexualising a business owner

[00:40:50] or a young female or anyone is completely wrong.

[00:40:53] People shouldn't do it.

[00:40:54] And therefore it's important for that behaviour

[00:40:55] to be called out so it can be changed.

[00:40:58] That on LinkedIn received two very different responses.

[00:41:01] A lot of people were super supportive.

[00:41:03] Other people, on the other hand,

[00:41:05] were saying how I was asking for it

[00:41:07] because of what I was wearing.

[00:41:08] I was posting that with the intention

[00:41:11] of getting comments from people.

[00:41:13] That's obviously not what the post was for,

[00:41:15] but that's just how it was received.

[00:41:17] It is pretty shocking.

[00:41:20] And I think, because, you know,

[00:41:21] we were just briefly talking about this

[00:41:22] before Muggins hit record here.

[00:41:25] But, you know, I do think that

[00:41:28] by virtue of some of these platforms,

[00:41:30] I do wonder how much of that is worth,

[00:41:34] like, the fact that there are more men

[00:41:37] on some of these platforms

[00:41:38] because of the types of work.

[00:41:40] And I'm not saying that there's lots more,

[00:41:42] but, you know, there are a lot of women

[00:41:44] I know who are mums or stay-at-homes

[00:41:47] and they don't go onto these platforms.

[00:41:49] And then the other part of it is,

[00:41:52] I don't even know how many males there are

[00:41:55] that probably post topless pictures

[00:41:57] in and amongst some of the social posts

[00:41:59] that are out there.

[00:42:00] Not that I go searching for them.

[00:42:01] Maybe I should,

[00:42:02] and then the algorithm will start surfacing.

[00:42:04] It won't work for me.

[00:42:05] But I definitely don't see,

[00:42:06] and I don't think that I would ever

[00:42:09] in a million years catcall a man

[00:42:12] to be like, wow, sexy,

[00:42:15] let me see some more

[00:42:17] or some of the posts that you're describing.

[00:42:20] I just can't imagine as a woman

[00:42:21] being someone that would do that.

[00:42:23] I think your point about

[00:42:25] whether or not there's more men

[00:42:26] or whatever on some of these platforms

[00:42:28] is almost irrelevant, right?

[00:42:29] It's like, you know, LinkedIn, for example,

[00:42:31] is supposed to be a professional networking site.

[00:42:33] It's supposed to be where you go to do business,

[00:42:35] transact with people,

[00:42:36] to build and make relationships,

[00:42:37] et cetera, et cetera.

[00:42:38] So I just think the fact that,

[00:42:40] you know, you, Grace,

[00:42:41] are being subject to these kind of comments

[00:42:43] where people are saying,

[00:42:44] oh, well, you're asking for it.

[00:42:45] That's where Facebook and Twitter

[00:42:47] and everything else comes into play, right?

[00:42:48] It's not the platform for LinkedIn.

[00:42:50] So I just think it's wholly inappropriate.

[00:42:52] Is it just generally

[00:42:53] that you're getting it from all angles, Grace?

[00:42:55] So it's not just like,

[00:42:57] are there people in the accounting industry

[00:42:59] that you're finding doing that?

[00:43:02] Sometimes, yes.

[00:43:05] And sometimes it's general finance as well.

[00:43:07] I've got some horrific DMs

[00:43:09] from some people in the industry

[00:43:10] and some people just in finance in general.

[00:43:13] But it does come from all angles.

[00:43:15] It's people that I don't know.

[00:43:16] It's strangers on the internet

[00:43:17] when I come up on the FWU page.

[00:43:19] So it's a bit of everything.

[00:43:21] You must be really thick skinned

[00:43:23] because I think in my 20s,

[00:43:25] when I had it just in an office,

[00:43:27] and like I said,

[00:43:28] it's not something that you invite,

[00:43:31] but you're just wearing something.

[00:43:32] And just by virtue of the fact

[00:43:34] that I was curvy and wearing a dress,

[00:43:36] that was enough to warrant

[00:43:38] like the sorts of, you know,

[00:43:40] the language that made you feel insecure

[00:43:44] and then encourage people to think

[00:43:47] that you're only at a certain point

[00:43:49] in your career

[00:43:50] because of, you know,

[00:43:52] the way that you lived.

[00:43:54] So Ayn, I think from everything

[00:43:57] that you're working on at the moment,

[00:43:58] you've been really good

[00:43:59] at kind of brushing it off

[00:44:01] and then like, you know,

[00:44:02] focusing on where it is

[00:44:04] that you want to get to.

[00:44:06] Let's talk a little bit more about that

[00:44:08] because starting up at like your age as well,

[00:44:11] it's like a bold decision.

[00:44:13] And I know that that must get picked on the most,

[00:44:16] but what was your initial MO

[00:44:18] for going into accountancy in particular

[00:44:22] and starting a practice so early on?

[00:44:25] And where is it that you want to get to,

[00:44:28] I guess, for the next two to three years?

[00:44:31] So for me, I started my business as a joke.

[00:44:34] I wanted to go traveling in Bali

[00:44:36] like every other 20 something year old girl,

[00:44:39] but I'd quit my job already

[00:44:40] and then I found out it was rainy season

[00:44:42] and I hadn't put two and two together.

[00:44:44] So I'd like three months to wait

[00:44:45] and I was like, right,

[00:44:46] can you go back to working in hospitality

[00:44:48] and like be a bartender

[00:44:49] like I did when I was 16, 17

[00:44:51] or lol, I'm a qualified accountant.

[00:44:54] Why don't I just set up a practice

[00:44:55] and like, it'd be hilarious

[00:44:56] if I got a couple of clients

[00:44:58] and if it worked great,

[00:44:59] I'd have a business

[00:44:59] and if I don't,

[00:45:00] oh, so sad,

[00:45:01] I'll have to go to Bali

[00:45:02] and live my best life by a waterfall.

[00:45:05] So I set it up with zero intention

[00:45:07] and I hate networking

[00:45:09] just because it's just not a bit of me.

[00:45:11] Like it just feels very transactional.

[00:45:13] I'm too chit chatty for it.

[00:45:15] And so I decided to set up social media

[00:45:18] and just like stop posting

[00:45:20] like about my journey

[00:45:21] and things I was doing

[00:45:22] like tax tips

[00:45:23] and like financial education

[00:45:25] and people were like,

[00:45:26] oh, like people taking interest into it

[00:45:28] and I was like,

[00:45:28] okay, like maybe this is something.

[00:45:30] So just really dialed down on it

[00:45:32] and it's really just grown from there.

[00:45:34] And obviously a lot of people

[00:45:35] in the accounting industry

[00:45:36] like to pick on my age.

[00:45:38] I started it when I was 21.

[00:45:39] I went into practice when I was 18

[00:45:43] and it is very young

[00:45:44] to start an accounting practice

[00:45:45] but there are other people

[00:45:47] that are doing it now

[00:45:48] like at my age

[00:45:49] and I think it's just so cool.

[00:45:51] Like we get to cater

[00:45:52] to a whole different audience.

[00:45:53] I work with young business owners

[00:45:55] that are my age

[00:45:56] and like they get it

[00:45:57] and understand it

[00:45:57] and it's just created

[00:45:58] such a nice environment

[00:46:00] but going forward now,

[00:46:01] I've realized

[00:46:02] I can actually run a practice.

[00:46:03] It's just doubling down

[00:46:04] and building it

[00:46:05] and growing lots of other

[00:46:06] little side businesses as well

[00:46:08] that I enjoy doing.

[00:46:10] Nice.

[00:46:10] And you mentioned

[00:46:11] you sort of had no intentions

[00:46:12] and it was a bit of a joke

[00:46:13] but I guess in those early days

[00:46:15] when you were just posting

[00:46:16] content and videos

[00:46:17] and bits and pieces,

[00:46:18] did they get to a point

[00:46:19] where you thought

[00:46:20] this isn't going to work

[00:46:21] and maybe I should just quit it

[00:46:23] and head off to Bali?

[00:46:24] Oh, well,

[00:46:25] I think I think that every day.

[00:46:26] I think as a business owner

[00:46:27] you have so many good days

[00:46:28] and so many bad days

[00:46:29] and on those bad days ago,

[00:46:30] oh, could have gone to Bali

[00:46:32] but here I am

[00:46:33] doing someone's back return.

[00:46:35] But I think that's

[00:46:36] completely normal.

[00:46:37] So yes,

[00:46:37] there have been times

[00:46:38] where I'm like,

[00:46:39] why am I doing this?

[00:46:40] But at the same time

[00:46:41] I've had the most amazing experiences

[00:46:43] that I would have never

[00:46:44] have got otherwise.

[00:46:46] And now that it is,

[00:46:47] you know,

[00:46:47] proper business,

[00:46:48] if you like,

[00:46:49] and you're a bit more intentional

[00:46:49] about what you want to do

[00:46:50] and stuff,

[00:46:51] I mean,

[00:46:51] you know,

[00:46:52] what are the objectives?

[00:46:53] Because I mean,

[00:46:54] I guess,

[00:46:54] you know,

[00:46:55] for you,

[00:46:56] as you mentioned before,

[00:46:57] posting on TikTok,

[00:46:58] posting on those social media platforms

[00:46:59] and stuff,

[00:46:59] it's a great way of attracting

[00:47:01] new business,

[00:47:02] it's a great way of attracting

[00:47:03] your demographic

[00:47:04] of types of clients as well,

[00:47:06] you know,

[00:47:06] aside from old crusty people

[00:47:08] like myself

[00:47:08] who are never going to be,

[00:47:09] you know,

[00:47:09] in those platforms

[00:47:11] doing those things.

[00:47:11] So,

[00:47:12] you know,

[00:47:13] how much opportunity

[00:47:14] do you think there is for you

[00:47:15] in the context of

[00:47:16] where you're kind of

[00:47:17] starting from at the moment?

[00:47:19] I think there's loads.

[00:47:20] I really do think

[00:47:21] as a business owner,

[00:47:22] like,

[00:47:22] the sky's the limit.

[00:47:23] You can literally

[00:47:23] just do anything.

[00:47:25] And so I feel like

[00:47:26] there's so much room

[00:47:27] for growth.

[00:47:28] Like,

[00:47:28] I've only got

[00:47:30] 25,000 followers now.

[00:47:32] Like,

[00:47:33] why can't I get more?

[00:47:34] It'd be fun.

[00:47:36] Absolutely.

[00:47:37] Yeah.

[00:47:37] And do you think

[00:47:39] that'll take you

[00:47:40] to more international

[00:47:41] opportunities as well?

[00:47:42] Because again,

[00:47:43] one of the great things

[00:47:44] about being on a social media platform,

[00:47:46] right,

[00:47:46] is that you're not just restricted

[00:47:47] to your local geography.

[00:47:49] You've got the ability

[00:47:50] to have an international presence

[00:47:51] to be able to do

[00:47:51] all sorts of things.

[00:47:52] That in itself

[00:47:53] comes with its own challenges,

[00:47:55] I guess,

[00:47:55] because no accountant

[00:47:57] can be a specialist

[00:47:58] in every country

[00:47:58] in the world,

[00:47:59] right?

[00:47:59] But you could specialise

[00:48:01] in a particular area

[00:48:02] of business

[00:48:02] and then sort of

[00:48:03] niche down into that.

[00:48:04] Yeah,

[00:48:05] but it's also the fact

[00:48:06] that I've set up

[00:48:06] as a completely remote practice.

[00:48:08] So we don't have an office.

[00:48:09] I work from this private

[00:48:10] members club

[00:48:11] because the Wi-Fi

[00:48:11] at home is terrible.

[00:48:13] But it means

[00:48:14] that I'm able

[00:48:15] to take my laptop anywhere.

[00:48:16] So it doesn't mean

[00:48:16] that I need to specialise

[00:48:17] in any other country.

[00:48:18] I can still specialise

[00:48:19] in UK tax

[00:48:20] and accounting,

[00:48:22] yet I'm able

[00:48:23] to do it

[00:48:23] from other countries.

[00:48:24] If I think of the

[00:48:25] accountant

[00:48:26] that were around

[00:48:27] like,

[00:48:28] when I first came

[00:48:29] into this industry

[00:48:30] like,

[00:48:31] I don't know,

[00:48:31] seven years ago

[00:48:32] or something,

[00:48:33] and they would never

[00:48:35] think like that.

[00:48:35] They would never think,

[00:48:36] right,

[00:48:36] I'm just going to

[00:48:36] rock up somewhere

[00:48:37] and do accounting

[00:48:39] from anywhere.

[00:48:40] And then you had

[00:48:42] Alex Falcon

[00:48:42] that came around

[00:48:43] and she was like

[00:48:44] showing you

[00:48:45] it's so easy

[00:48:46] to like basically

[00:48:46] be international

[00:48:47] and have like

[00:48:48] the four-day work week.

[00:48:50] But what I think

[00:48:51] is even more fascinating

[00:48:52] is that if I was

[00:48:54] seven years ago

[00:48:55] and now we've got AI

[00:48:56] in the next five years

[00:48:58] people can't even predict

[00:48:59] where we're going to go

[00:49:00] at all.

[00:49:01] And actually most

[00:49:02] of the systems

[00:49:03] that we've got

[00:49:03] now are all designed

[00:49:04] to reduce,

[00:49:05] like reduce risk,

[00:49:06] reduce time to market.

[00:49:08] How are you

[00:49:09] using those new

[00:49:10] forms of tech

[00:49:11] as well

[00:49:11] in your practice?

[00:49:13] Because I think

[00:49:13] that's something

[00:49:14] that you're far

[00:49:16] more native

[00:49:17] to it

[00:49:18] than I guess

[00:49:18] most,

[00:49:19] you know,

[00:49:20] in the accounting

[00:49:21] industry as a whole.

[00:49:24] Most are still

[00:49:25] kind of digital immigrants

[00:49:26] to it

[00:49:27] because,

[00:49:27] you know,

[00:49:28] we still speak

[00:49:28] about cloud a lot,

[00:49:29] you know,

[00:49:29] and whether things

[00:49:30] are cloud.

[00:49:31] Now we're in the advent

[00:49:32] of like AI

[00:49:33] and there being

[00:49:35] much more tech

[00:49:36] out there.

[00:49:37] What's your approach

[00:49:38] to that?

[00:49:40] So firstly,

[00:49:41] Alex Falcon,

[00:49:42] she is just

[00:49:43] such an amazing

[00:49:44] accountant.

[00:49:45] Like she is so brilliant.

[00:49:46] I think she's really

[00:49:47] pioneered the way

[00:49:48] for digital nomads

[00:49:50] and also females

[00:49:51] in accounting.

[00:49:51] She was such a breath

[00:49:53] of fresh air

[00:49:53] and still is

[00:49:54] and I genuinely

[00:49:55] love everything

[00:49:55] that she does.

[00:49:56] So just a moment

[00:49:57] for Alex Falcon.

[00:49:58] And then

[00:49:59] in terms of AI,

[00:50:01] I think because

[00:50:01] I've grown up

[00:50:02] with technology

[00:50:03] since I was little,

[00:50:04] it's like very

[00:50:05] second nature.

[00:50:06] So I love things

[00:50:07] that have AI in it,

[00:50:08] things that help

[00:50:09] me become more efficient.

[00:50:10] I love having calls

[00:50:11] with new accounting

[00:50:12] software providers

[00:50:13] to see what they're

[00:50:14] offering,

[00:50:16] so I came across

[00:50:17] Unify the other day

[00:50:18] and I use them now

[00:50:20] for my onboarding

[00:50:21] and they have proposal,

[00:50:22] letter of engagement

[00:50:23] and AML

[00:50:24] and collecting data

[00:50:26] like UTRs

[00:50:27] and things like that

[00:50:28] all in one workflow

[00:50:29] in one link

[00:50:30] that gets sent to the client

[00:50:30] and then they work

[00:50:31] their way through it

[00:50:31] which for me

[00:50:32] is so clever

[00:50:33] because I felt

[00:50:34] that onboarding

[00:50:34] was always a bit bitty

[00:50:36] whereas now

[00:50:37] it's just in one workflow.

[00:50:38] I think that's fabulous

[00:50:39] and also in terms

[00:50:41] of content as well,

[00:50:42] I use CapCut,

[00:50:43] AI generates subtitles,

[00:50:44] things like that

[00:50:45] just makes my life

[00:50:46] so much easier.

[00:50:48] So do you think

[00:50:49] the advantage

[00:50:50] for somebody

[00:50:51] like yourself

[00:50:52] who is a sort of

[00:50:52] digital native

[00:50:53] as you say

[00:50:53] is more around

[00:50:56] just the opportunities

[00:50:57] in terms of

[00:50:58] you're just aware

[00:50:59] of how to promote

[00:51:00] yourself more effectively

[00:51:01] on some of these

[00:51:02] social platforms,

[00:51:03] how to go out

[00:51:03] and attract

[00:51:04] the types of businesses

[00:51:05] or people

[00:51:06] that will be on

[00:51:06] these platforms as well

[00:51:07] because to be fair,

[00:51:10] having a call

[00:51:10] with a software vendor

[00:51:11] like Unified

[00:51:12] isn't you,

[00:51:12] lots of other accountants

[00:51:13] can do that, right?

[00:51:14] So that doesn't really

[00:51:15] differentiate you

[00:51:16] but there's probably

[00:51:17] not that many people

[00:51:18] like Sally,

[00:51:19] in my generation

[00:51:20] of accountants,

[00:51:21] none of us

[00:51:21] are really using CapCut,

[00:51:22] it's our kids

[00:51:22] that are doing that

[00:51:24] and so we're not

[00:51:25] kind of in the same place

[00:51:26] as you are.

[00:51:28] Yeah, no, I agree.

[00:51:29] I think with software,

[00:51:30] like having calls

[00:51:31] with software providers,

[00:51:32] I feel like some

[00:51:32] accountants are quite

[00:51:33] close-minded,

[00:51:34] they might get scared

[00:51:35] that it's got

[00:51:35] so many AI integrations

[00:51:37] whereas I'm like,

[00:51:38] oh, I love this,

[00:51:39] give it to me,

[00:51:40] that looks great

[00:51:40] but I think you're right

[00:51:42] within the content

[00:51:43] creation space

[00:51:43] using things like

[00:51:44] answerthepublic.com,

[00:51:47] CapCut,

[00:51:47] things like Canva

[00:51:48] to generate AI

[00:51:49] and put posts together,

[00:51:51] that's the way

[00:51:52] that I like doing it

[00:51:53] for me,

[00:51:53] we have 90% of our clients

[00:51:55] come through TikTok,

[00:51:56] like that's a crazy percentage

[00:51:57] and so obviously

[00:51:59] I'm going to put time

[00:51:59] aside on my business

[00:52:00] to create that content

[00:52:01] and keep creating it

[00:52:03] so that we can still

[00:52:04] get a good flow

[00:52:05] of lead gen

[00:52:05] coming through social media.

[00:52:07] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:52:08] I think that's probably

[00:52:09] what differentiates

[00:52:10] people like yourself

[00:52:11] in the market now

[00:52:12] from more traditional firms

[00:52:14] is that just the source

[00:52:15] and generation

[00:52:16] of opportunities

[00:52:17] and leads

[00:52:17] is totally different

[00:52:18] and I want to kind of

[00:52:19] pivot away if possible

[00:52:21] and just talk about

[00:52:23] something that you've

[00:52:24] spoken about as well

[00:52:25] which is probably,

[00:52:26] I guess,

[00:52:27] partly behind

[00:52:27] why you've started

[00:52:28] out in business yourself

[00:52:29] was around

[00:52:30] when you were a trainee

[00:52:31] and you went to work

[00:52:33] for a large firm

[00:52:34] trying to sort of

[00:52:35] find your way in there

[00:52:36] and one of the challenges

[00:52:37] that you have

[00:52:37] because you've got dyslexia

[00:52:39] which you've talked about

[00:52:39] is really just

[00:52:40] how do you consume

[00:52:43] the knowledge

[00:52:43] and information

[00:52:44] that you need

[00:52:44] and how important

[00:52:45] is it for employers

[00:52:46] when they recruit

[00:52:48] apprentices like yourself

[00:52:49] to make it

[00:52:50] as easy as possible

[00:52:51] to overcome

[00:52:52] these challenges

[00:52:53] that you have

[00:52:54] or that other people

[00:52:55] will have

[00:52:55] if they've got

[00:52:56] different learning requirements.

[00:52:57] Yeah, I think it's really

[00:52:58] important to use software

[00:52:59] so I've like speech software

[00:53:01] that reads things

[00:53:02] back to me

[00:53:02] as well as I use AI

[00:53:04] to summarise pieces of work

[00:53:06] so with my dyslexia

[00:53:07] I really struggle

[00:53:07] with reading and writing

[00:53:08] pretty basic things

[00:53:09] that you need to be able to do

[00:53:10] and so I use things

[00:53:12] like Grammarly

[00:53:12] all of the time

[00:53:13] for emails

[00:53:14] and writing

[00:53:15] but using AI

[00:53:16] to scan documents

[00:53:17] is so unbelievably helpful

[00:53:18] I cannot read

[00:53:20] on a computer

[00:53:20] I really struggle

[00:53:22] to digest that information

[00:53:23] so using AI

[00:53:25] really helps

[00:53:26] but it's just

[00:53:27] having an open dialogue

[00:53:28] with your employer

[00:53:30] saying hey

[00:53:30] this is what I really

[00:53:31] struggle with

[00:53:32] XYZ would really help me

[00:53:33] and I was really lucky

[00:53:35] in my firm

[00:53:35] that they were just there

[00:53:36] to put anything

[00:53:37] on my laptop

[00:53:38] that I needed

[00:53:39] especially with running

[00:53:40] my business now

[00:53:41] it means I'm able

[00:53:41] to run a business

[00:53:42] in a way that suits me

[00:53:43] I voice note

[00:53:45] all of my clients

[00:53:46] I don't text them

[00:53:46] because I can't spell

[00:53:47] and they don't understand

[00:53:48] what I'm saying

[00:53:48] but it means

[00:53:49] that they're happy

[00:53:50] to voice note me as well

[00:53:51] and it's just

[00:53:51] a lot more informal

[00:53:52] which is so lovely

[00:53:54] I think that's amazing

[00:53:55] as well

[00:53:56] because I think

[00:53:56] from the outside

[00:53:57] looking in

[00:53:58] you wouldn't know

[00:53:59] that you had dyslexia

[00:54:00] I know that seems

[00:54:01] like a silly thing to say

[00:54:02] but when I see your post

[00:54:03] and see your messages

[00:54:04] and everything else

[00:54:04] there's no spelling errors

[00:54:05] there's nothing

[00:54:06] there's no hints

[00:54:07] that would give that away

[00:54:08] necessarily

[00:54:08] so I think that's

[00:54:09] a really good demonstration

[00:54:10] of how technology

[00:54:11] can assist somebody

[00:54:12] yeah but even

[00:54:13] when I'm doing posts

[00:54:14] I'll use voice

[00:54:16] I don't know

[00:54:17] word doc

[00:54:17] I will just say

[00:54:18] my post and it

[00:54:19] will type it out

[00:54:20] which is so helpful

[00:54:21] because I cannot spell

[00:54:22] like words

[00:54:23] there's also time

[00:54:24] I mean you're shaving

[00:54:25] off so much time

[00:54:26] when you're doing that

[00:54:27] you can then

[00:54:29] I think about the fact

[00:54:31] that like you know

[00:54:31] when you're trying to

[00:54:32] get so many things done

[00:54:34] your attention is always

[00:54:35] like spread between

[00:54:37] two or three things

[00:54:38] at a time

[00:54:39] when you're able

[00:54:39] to just speak about it

[00:54:41] you know that you're

[00:54:42] going to get it done

[00:54:42] a lot quicker

[00:54:44] I think there was

[00:54:45] something as well

[00:54:46] about like your journey

[00:54:47] into startup

[00:54:49] and your journey

[00:54:50] into accounting

[00:54:50] in particular

[00:54:51] that I thought

[00:54:52] was really interesting

[00:54:52] was something

[00:54:54] that like close

[00:54:55] to my heart as well

[00:54:56] is I really wish

[00:54:57] there was more

[00:54:58] financial education

[00:54:59] on the syllabus

[00:55:00] or in schools

[00:55:02] so what are you

[00:55:04] doing on that

[00:55:05] because I know

[00:55:05] you've spoken about

[00:55:06] and I really

[00:55:07] that's one area

[00:55:08] that I really feel

[00:55:09] like we're all blind

[00:55:09] and it's so impractical

[00:55:11] to then go into

[00:55:13] school and come out

[00:55:14] and not even

[00:55:15] understand the basics

[00:55:16] of how the tax system

[00:55:18] works in the UK

[00:55:19] yeah no it's really

[00:55:20] important

[00:55:21] so there's a statistic

[00:55:22] that says financial

[00:55:23] education is only taught

[00:55:24] in 4% of schools

[00:55:25] across the UK

[00:55:25] which is absolutely

[00:55:26] shocking

[00:55:27] and it's being taught

[00:55:28] for 48 minutes

[00:55:29] a month

[00:55:30] instead of the

[00:55:31] recommended 30 hours

[00:55:32] which is just atrocious

[00:55:34] and so you realise

[00:55:35] that all these kids

[00:55:35] come out of school

[00:55:36] with the complete

[00:55:37] lack of financial

[00:55:37] education

[00:55:38] and then they're

[00:55:39] being

[00:55:39] they're going into

[00:55:40] work

[00:55:40] not being able

[00:55:41] to read their

[00:55:41] pay slip

[00:55:42] not being able

[00:55:42] to budget

[00:55:43] don't know what

[00:55:43] high interest savings

[00:55:44] count is

[00:55:45] or an ISA

[00:55:45] or we have

[00:55:46] what we have

[00:55:47] where young

[00:55:47] business owners

[00:55:48] start businesses

[00:55:49] but don't understand

[00:55:50] how the tax system

[00:55:50] works and haven't

[00:55:52] registered as self-employed

[00:55:53] and haven't registered

[00:55:54] as a limited company

[00:55:54] and they just don't

[00:55:56] understand anything

[00:55:57] that's going on

[00:55:57] they just feel

[00:55:58] out of their depth

[00:55:58] but it's a shame

[00:55:59] because we need

[00:56:00] businesses for

[00:56:01] innovation in the UK

[00:56:01] and so for me

[00:56:03] I incorporated

[00:56:04] a charity called

[00:56:05] Money Hive

[00:56:06] we give free

[00:56:07] financial education

[00:56:08] workshops in

[00:56:09] workplaces and schools

[00:56:10] so we've delivered

[00:56:11] over 100 sessions

[00:56:12] just in London

[00:56:14] and over 30 sessions

[00:56:15] to parents

[00:56:16] and teachers

[00:56:16] as well

[00:56:17] to give them

[00:56:18] the education

[00:56:18] the financial education

[00:56:20] for free

[00:56:22] that is incredible

[00:56:23] that is such a great

[00:56:24] initiative

[00:56:25] I'd love to obviously

[00:56:26] put my daughter

[00:56:27] into more about

[00:56:27] she's such a budding

[00:56:29] entrepreneur

[00:56:29] and she's only nine

[00:56:30] years old

[00:56:31] and she says to me

[00:56:32] all the time

[00:56:32] she wants to start

[00:56:33] printing things

[00:56:34] on a 3D printer

[00:56:35] and start selling

[00:56:36] them at the market

[00:56:37] she's like

[00:56:37] mummy will you

[00:56:38] just be that

[00:56:38] maybe that

[00:56:39] you know

[00:56:39] that person

[00:56:40] that you do

[00:56:41] things with

[00:56:42] at the beginning

[00:56:42] you do them

[00:56:44] that's so sweet

[00:56:45] co-founder

[00:56:46] she's like

[00:56:47] yeah yeah

[00:56:47] be my co-founder

[00:56:51] but yeah

[00:56:52] she's got a long

[00:56:52] way to go

[00:56:53] and I think

[00:56:54] that that's part

[00:56:54] of the problem

[00:56:55] it's like

[00:56:55] like you said

[00:56:56] you get involved

[00:56:57] with a lot

[00:56:57] of people

[00:56:57] on TikTok

[00:56:58] I imagine

[00:56:59] some of those

[00:56:59] business owners

[00:57:01] are

[00:57:02] they're new age

[00:57:02] businesses

[00:57:03] so whether

[00:57:04] it's like

[00:57:05] whether it is

[00:57:05] like content

[00:57:06] or is it

[00:57:07] actually

[00:57:07] what are the

[00:57:08] kind of

[00:57:09] what's the

[00:57:09] sort of profile

[00:57:10] of those

[00:57:10] that approach

[00:57:11] you on TikTok

[00:57:11] or is it

[00:57:12] like more

[00:57:12] like content

[00:57:13] heavy and that's

[00:57:14] how they started

[00:57:15] their business

[00:57:15] or is it

[00:57:16] like goods

[00:57:17] or is there

[00:57:18] a pattern

[00:57:18] that you've

[00:57:18] seen in terms

[00:57:19] of like

[00:57:19] so it's

[00:57:20] it's both

[00:57:21] so a lot of

[00:57:21] small businesses

[00:57:22] will promote

[00:57:22] on TikTok

[00:57:23] like I do

[00:57:24] and so they

[00:57:24] can be service

[00:57:25] based businesses

[00:57:26] or good based

[00:57:26] businesses

[00:57:27] so we deal

[00:57:28] with a lot

[00:57:28] of content

[00:57:28] creators

[00:57:29] and agencies

[00:57:30] so marketing

[00:57:31] and social media

[00:57:32] agencies

[00:57:32] also photographers

[00:57:34] and lawyers

[00:57:35] so there's just

[00:57:36] such a range

[00:57:37] so it really

[00:57:38] is everything

[00:57:40] that's

[00:57:40] fascinating

[00:57:41] and

[00:57:42] Chris I would

[00:57:43] just love to

[00:57:44] talk to you

[00:57:44] for so much

[00:57:44] longer

[00:57:45] but maybe

[00:57:46] you know

[00:57:47] it would be

[00:57:48] great to have

[00:57:48] you back

[00:57:49] on another

[00:57:49] episode

[00:57:50] and I think

[00:57:50] this was really

[00:57:51] great to be

[00:57:51] able to talk

[00:57:52] to you

[00:57:52] and congratulations

[00:57:52] on the win

[00:57:53] again

[00:57:54] boo to anyone

[00:57:55] that is like

[00:57:56] you know

[00:57:58] having a slightly

[00:57:59] sinister read

[00:58:00] on it

[00:58:01] but we can't

[00:58:02] obviously

[00:58:02] we can't

[00:58:02] change people

[00:58:10] no brilliant

[00:58:10] thank you so

[00:58:11] much for having

[00:58:12] me

[00:58:12] thank you

[00:58:13] grace

[00:58:13] you're awesome

[00:58:15] thanks

[00:58:18] okay there we

[00:58:19] go that draws

[00:58:20] to a close

[00:58:20] another episode

[00:58:21] of the

[00:58:22] DigiTools

[00:58:22] and the

[00:58:22] Cruel World

[00:58:23] podcast

[00:58:24] I hope you

[00:58:24] enjoyed the

[00:58:25] episode

[00:58:25] I hope you

[00:58:26] enjoyed the

[00:58:26] news

[00:58:26] the updates

[00:58:27] the interview

[00:58:28] with grace

[00:58:28] in particular

[00:58:29] and look

[00:58:30] we're always

[00:58:31] interested in

[00:58:32] your feedback

[00:58:32] your ideas

[00:58:33] your thoughts

[00:58:34] anything

[00:58:34] about the

[00:58:35] show

[00:58:35] find us

[00:58:37] on the

[00:58:37] socials

[00:58:38] comment

[00:58:38] on the

[00:58:39] podcast

[00:58:39] episode

[00:58:40] let us know

[00:58:41] if there's

[00:58:41] something

[00:58:41] we're not

[00:58:42] doing

[00:58:42] we should

[00:58:43] pick up

[00:58:44] for now

[00:58:45] that's it

[00:58:46] and I hope

[00:58:47] you join us

[00:58:47] in the next

[00:58:47] one