Boomer or Bust - The quirks of a generational shift in practice ownership || PLUS App News ||

[00:00:00] Exiting for certain firm owners at the moment is a real challenge. Gen Z can't afford a house, why would they want to buy into an accountancy firm?

[00:00:06] I hear this all the time from firms, I'm churning away business because I can't get a staff.

[00:00:12] Nuuk has been acquired by Modular.

[00:00:14] Modular are now the HLRC-appointed supplier of confirmation of payee technology.

[00:00:20] Free agents are expanding their smart capture functionality.

[00:00:23] They've also delivered on being the friendliest software of the year again at the LUCA Awards.

[00:00:30] Approval Max have raised £10 million from a European growth equity firm called Yttrium.

[00:00:37] True Layer, one of the big protagonists in open banking, lays off 25% of their staff in a single day.

[00:00:45] It's a different perspective to open banking that I've seen in terms of the growth so far.

[00:00:51] Dex payments coming in 2025.

[00:00:53] It is a fast evolving space and there's a lot going on.

[00:00:57] I just think that they've done a really great pivot.

[00:01:00] I'd like to see more accounting firms taking the same kind of bold move because so many of them are

[00:01:07] just steeped behind what feels like heritage brands.

[00:01:10] I've developed more as a business leader in the last year than I probably have in the last five.

[00:01:15] This is maybe a bit unusual in the accounting space is that money is a resource to be used

[00:01:19] and it's not something you just hold in a bank account.

[00:01:22] My investors probably don't want to hear me saying that. Sorry.

[00:01:25] Hello and welcome to today's DigiTools in a Cruel World episode.

[00:01:30] We're delighted you can join us and hopefully you learn a few things about the latest in the app news

[00:01:35] that is taking place across the accounting tech industry.

[00:01:38] And we're also joined by Sophia Hossack from Alica Bank.

[00:01:41] Before we go any further, let me introduce you to the amazing co-hosts that we have

[00:01:46] from two different accounting firms.

[00:01:49] John, June, how are you?

[00:01:51] I'm good, thanks.

[00:01:52] I had a great weekend up in Scotland and enjoyed the absolutely mental weather that we're having at the moment.

[00:01:59] And yeah, just looking forward to the next few weeks as we wind up to Christmas because

[00:02:04] what is it, a month away?

[00:02:06] Christmas decorations at the ready, Christmas lights almost ready to go, I think.

[00:02:09] Tree hunting about to start soon.

[00:02:12] And you're looking super festive already with your red jersey on there and cozy.

[00:02:17] Could be like a trimmed down version of Santa Claus.

[00:02:22] What's on the naughty and nice list this year?

[00:02:24] Who's on the naughty and nice list this year?

[00:02:27] Well, I mean, Ryan's always on the naughty list, isn't he?

[00:02:30] Because he's a little tinker.

[00:02:32] And I reckon you're probably on the good list because you'll obviously want to pull something

[00:02:36] out of my sack closer to Christmas, won't you?

[00:02:39] Oh, Ryan.

[00:02:41] Ryan, please salvage this.

[00:02:42] I'm going to try and save this.

[00:02:46] I'm good.

[00:02:46] I am also excited for Christmas now with two little munchkins to look after.

[00:02:52] But the first thing I need to do is unpack the thousands of boxes of tech equipment I seem to

[00:02:55] have acquired over the last two weeks and just dotted around me, creating a little fort out of boxes

[00:03:01] in my little study.

[00:03:03] So yeah, that's the first thing I need to do.

[00:03:05] That sounds dull.

[00:03:06] Good luck with that, Ryan.

[00:03:07] Shall we get that news?

[00:03:09] Yes, let's do that.

[00:03:16] Nook has been acquired by Modular.

[00:03:18] It's a really exciting development in the industry.

[00:03:21] Great synergies between the two brands.

[00:03:23] Nook was a disruptor in the accounts payable space.

[00:03:28] Both companies are showing that they're on that same mission of addressing inefficiencies,

[00:03:33] where most of the problem seems to lie in the amount of hours spent in manual data entry,

[00:03:41] and also the different separate systems to manage accounts payable.

[00:03:45] Nook has done a really great job of bringing those things into one platform where there's

[00:03:51] a workflow for the approval to payment reconciliation with the accounting software tools like OCR,

[00:03:59] enhanced with AI to ensure there's precise line item capture in each invoice, and then having

[00:04:05] a customizable workflow with also having a collaboration that allows you to remove manual steps and save time.

[00:04:13] Really great synergy between the two businesses.

[00:04:17] Modular, who has been dominant in that payments space as well, and worked with multiple accountants.

[00:04:23] So we can see the value of the two coming together.

[00:04:25] And I think that this category of around accounts payable

[00:04:31] platforms that are helping with that automation is still room for growth on both sides, because they've

[00:04:37] certainly at least managed to find a synergy between the two customer bases.

[00:04:45] But they're still a step further because, you know, both have worked with underlying banking infrastructure

[00:04:51] and the way that they've wired themselves together. So we're really excited to see where that goes.

[00:04:57] And I think that there's still some merit in like what might go beyond payment into the use of that data,

[00:05:04] because I think both companies have a big repository of data that will be used probably in a multiple

[00:05:11] different ways that, you know, Nook touches on it with AI. I think Modular is only at the start of that.

[00:05:17] So, great work and really excited for the guys at Nook.

[00:05:22] Yeah, it's a promising one. And I guess we predicted there'd be some consolidation in this space and

[00:05:28] it's happening. There's been a lot of kind of payment tools and, you know, new, I guess, data capture tools

[00:05:34] that have been releasing payments. So, yeah, we're seeing a bit of consolidation, but it looks like a very powerful one that can come out of this.

[00:05:41] Well, we say, did we predict it? I mean, it's kind of known that there's going to be a right.

[00:05:45] We predicted this exact scenario.

[00:05:48] And we got it right for the first time ever.

[00:05:50] Wow.

[00:05:52] One thing I'm really quite excited about with the Modular acquisition here of Nook is whether or not

[00:05:58] they'll take the kind of the sort of supplier network part of Nook that they were building out,

[00:06:05] which allowed you to sort of connect your business into your supplier network and vice versa

[00:06:09] and have that sort of cross pollinate across multiple entities.

[00:06:12] I thought that was quite an interesting piece of technology. It wasn't often talked about from a Nook perspective,

[00:06:17] but I think if Modular could take that and build on it, given the scale of business that they are

[00:06:20] and the number of entities that they're connected to, I think that could be quite fascinating to see how that develops over time.

[00:06:26] Yeah, no one has really taken the supplier approach to what Nook has done.

[00:06:32] So you've got big ERP systems that try and tackle it.

[00:06:35] And then you've got nothing at the small or the mid-size end where you can have bulk payment

[00:06:42] or you can have something that manages right the way through to the accounting software and has the flexibility

[00:06:48] of like what a banking solution could provide.

[00:06:50] So it's easier to then manage the payments or change the bank account details, et cetera.

[00:06:55] So I think that because Modular are so deep in that space and they've got their own great relationship with the accounting community,

[00:07:04] it's really good for Nook to then have like something where they can put some rocket fuel into what they've already delivered.

[00:07:12] I think their product is truly unique in the accounts payable automation space.

[00:07:16] Yeah, exciting times.

[00:07:18] And that's not the only bit of information that's come from Modular.

[00:07:21] Modular and now the, I guess, HMRC-appointed supplier of confirmation of payee technology

[00:07:29] using the nascent public sector-wide dynamic purchasing system.

[00:07:33] So this is quite, I guess, well, big for Modular, the fact that HMRC are rolling this out and they're using the open banking,

[00:07:43] digital payments and confirmation of payee services platform.

[00:07:47] Now, I think this could be a huge brand awareness for Modular.

[00:07:52] I know they're already big in the accounting space, but the fact that they're now the power behind HMRC means it's going beyond just the accounting space.

[00:07:59] So I think this could be a big thing, the fact that they've already acquired Nook around the same time.

[00:08:05] We saw some functionality releases over the past few months, as well as spreading their wings into more platforms they integrate into.

[00:08:12] So, yeah, big push.

[00:08:13] I'm wondering if they're building up to something, because when we see a lot of development and a lot of acquisitions,

[00:08:18] platforms sometimes build up to either acquiring new finance or a sale.

[00:08:24] So I don't know if they're going to be building up to that, but they're definitely doing a lot at the moment.

[00:08:28] Absolutely. Exciting times for the payment space, and I'm sure there'll be more to come in that respect, won't there?

[00:08:34] I've got a little bit of something from FreeAgent who are expanding their smart capture functionality.

[00:08:39] So this is something that was built into FreeAgent about a year ago.

[00:08:43] And at the time when it was launched, it enabled you to upload receipts and basically extract information from those receipts,

[00:08:49] essentially as part of an expense claim, really, in FreeAgent, although you could tie that straight into the bank reconciliation process.

[00:08:55] They've now extended that functionality out to invoices or, if you like, to use the parlance and to bills.

[00:09:00] So you can also throw them into smart capture.

[00:09:05] It works in exactly the same way as it did historically with receipts.

[00:09:08] So if you're using that functionality or you're familiar with OCR, it does exactly what it says on the tin.

[00:09:13] And effectively, you've got free use of the product for the first 10 items, after which you pay £5 a month for anything above that.

[00:09:23] And it's unlimited after that.

[00:09:24] So, yeah, great little add-on.

[00:09:26] It was obviously asked for by a lot of people in terms of expanding that functionality out.

[00:09:30] And now FreeAgent have delivered.

[00:09:32] And they've also delivered on being the friendliest software of the year again at the Luca Awards.

[00:09:40] So congrats to them on that.

[00:09:41] That's five out of six years they've been the friendliest software, three years in a row.

[00:09:48] So congrats to them.

[00:09:50] What are they doing differently?

[00:09:52] How are they winning this title every year?

[00:09:56] And it's great because of such a big software and software that's gone back years.

[00:10:03] It's that consistency in what they deliver.

[00:10:06] So really great news for them.

[00:10:08] Congrats.

[00:10:09] And it's a pleasure working with them.

[00:10:11] I think that's what we would all say.

[00:10:13] I want to know what happened in the year when they didn't win it.

[00:10:16] Because, you know, were they particularly grumpy that year?

[00:10:18] That's what I'm really interested in.

[00:10:19] Not how are they managing to maintain consistency, but were they in a particular mood one year?

[00:10:24] And what happened?

[00:10:26] Someone was just friendly that year.

[00:10:28] That's it, John.

[00:10:29] Someone was just friendly.

[00:10:30] Well, hopefully it continues because otherwise they're probably the friendliest accounting software in the world slogan will disappear.

[00:10:38] But pivoting from free agent, ApprovalMax have raised £10 million from a European growth equity firm called Yttrium.

[00:10:48] This is built on, I guess, the back of appointing a new CEO.

[00:10:52] Some significant increase in their revenue over the last year or so, which has been a combination of growth from additional clients, but also from price changes.

[00:11:03] At the same time, they released Capture and Pay, which have been evolving over the last year or so.

[00:11:08] But their plans for the £10 million is pumping pretty much all of it back into growing the technology.

[00:11:15] So investing in the product, driving it, taking it further.

[00:11:19] And as you can tell with what they're doing from a tech perspective, trying to spread out to be one of the leading players in the entire AP space.

[00:11:28] Yeah, and back off the back of all of this AP madness, which is going on as everyone extends their functionality up and downstream across the entire process.

[00:11:38] And Dex have also teased with a little bit with the launch of Dex payments coming in 2025.

[00:11:43] And you can already register your interest in that product online to find out a little bit more.

[00:11:48] And this has come off the back of a whole bunch of other functionality that they launched in the last few weeks, which includes mileage tracking, the ability to now integrated Dex Precision and Dex Commerce.

[00:11:59] And it's all coming on to be wrapped around one single platform.

[00:12:02] So it's not spread across their separate platforms.

[00:12:05] And enhanced roles, functionality and permissions, and also the approval functionality that's coming in.

[00:12:11] So it's going to become a bit of a bunfight over the next few months for firms, particularly those that are doing outsource bookkeeping and advising their clients, because we're going to have a whole bunch of competing products that we used to play nicely together.

[00:12:23] Now looking to sort of outdo each other.

[00:12:27] And we're going to have to figure out where our allegiances lie, I guess, over the next few months.

[00:12:32] Plus, you've got the whole new wave of products, which are using AI, aren't they, to extract the information out of documents.

[00:12:39] It is a fast evolving space and there's a lot going on.

[00:12:44] So, yeah, I'm not sure if we're going to, I don't know, see people just stand back and watch a bit or people going to jump and kind of hope they've designed the right software.

[00:12:55] I'm not entirely sure what I would do at this point.

[00:12:59] One subject we haven't touched in a while, which is open banking.

[00:13:03] Used to be your favorite, actually, two years ago, I think, John.

[00:13:06] 11 million users who have connected to open banking.

[00:13:12] And there's obviously a change in the industry in so far as open banking and the next steps for it at the government level and what it will imply from that perspective.

[00:13:24] But it's interesting to see that True Layer, one of the big protagonists in this space, lays off 25% of their staff in a single day.

[00:13:34] So there were 71 roles that were asked and they did it just a week before announcing a 50 million funding round.

[00:13:42] So super interesting to see that actually that as a result in this last year, they have the valuation has fallen by 30% in their fundraise.

[00:13:52] So it's stripped the company of its unicorn status.

[00:13:56] And it hasn't done this big a layoff since September 2022.

[00:14:02] So it looks like they're piling up, though, quite a lot of loss.

[00:14:09] However, in its reports, it also says that it's growing year on year.

[00:14:13] And actually, last year was its strongest year to date.

[00:14:17] I think that they're probably just shoring things up for the future.

[00:14:21] Because I can't see the trend on open banking going backwards at all now.

[00:14:26] But it's whether True Layer, because they were so early to the party,

[00:14:30] have just not kept pace with the amount of options that are out there on the market available to vendors at the moment.

[00:14:38] So it's a different perspective to open banking that I've seen in terms of the growth so far.

[00:14:47] Yeah, and I have to indicate where these posts have been laid off from.

[00:14:51] I mean, is it development?

[00:14:52] Is it sales, marketing, somewhere else?

[00:14:55] Because the only reason I can imagine that maybe they're wanting to sort of trim some fat

[00:15:00] other than maybe to try and improve results is that, I guess, talking in the UK context,

[00:15:06] you know, open banking has sort of staggered a little bit here.

[00:15:08] You know, we're kind of in a bit of a hiatus until we wait for the next round of legislation to go through

[00:15:12] and the next sort of prompts in terms of ideas.

[00:15:15] But on the continent, for example, it's starting to raise ahead.

[00:15:17] And obviously, in lots of other territories, we've still got quite a lot of interesting things happening.

[00:15:21] Potentially.

[00:15:22] I mean, it says it's operational.

[00:15:23] So maybe it's down to the fact that they've only just done the second read on the bill.

[00:15:28] So there will be a lot of changes now that we need to wait for in terms of the next steps for open banking, as you said.

[00:15:40] I'm delighted to say, joined again by Sophie Hossack from Alica, and she is the head of partnerships there.

[00:15:45] And we're going to touch on the final bit of our mini series that we've been running with Sophie,

[00:15:49] which is all about how Alica are a digital bank, but focusing really in on human relationships.

[00:15:54] So Sophie, tell me all about how do you deliver a digital bank with human relationships and not completely break the model that we've seen over the last few years?

[00:16:02] I think the first thing to say is that Alica are really specific on who we support and serve.

[00:16:07] So we refer to our customers as being established SMEs.

[00:16:10] They are typically businesses who have between five and 250 employees.

[00:16:15] Now, that group of businesses, they are really quite complex.

[00:16:19] They have really quite complex needs, both with regards to lending, but also maybe savings and their day-to-day cash management.

[00:16:27] So that's the first thing to recognize is that at Alica, we're really looking at a segment within the large, large SME community.

[00:16:34] So that's helped us define what those people need, what support they need.

[00:16:39] And that's helped us then focus on that relationship management piece.

[00:16:42] So you're absolutely right. We are a digital bank, first and foremost.

[00:16:46] So we don't have any branches. We don't have any bricks and mortar anywhere throughout the UK.

[00:16:52] But we do have people and that's really important.

[00:16:55] So we've got relationship managers.

[00:16:57] They are really experienced banking professionals who are embedded within their local communities.

[00:17:03] So we have people all throughout the UK who know their local town or region really, really well.

[00:17:10] They will go and visit our customers face to face.

[00:17:12] They'll build that relationship.

[00:17:14] And that's the thing that time and time again, whether you're looking at our Trustpilot reviews or whether we're getting our internal feedback through NPS surveys,

[00:17:22] service is the thing that people love the most about Alica and the thing that keeps them kind of coming back and banking with us more broadly.

[00:17:30] How does that play out in terms of, you know, I make a recommendation to one of my clients and say,

[00:17:34] I think Alica is a great fit for you. Go and speak to them.

[00:17:37] And then they get stuck in the weeds of the AML process and it just takes them weeks and weeks and weeks to get there.

[00:17:43] Yeah, that's such a good point.

[00:17:45] And the other thing to mention is that the ideal Alica customer is normally one of the most valuable clients for an accountancy firm.

[00:17:53] Because they're normally the ones that require the most help and support and advice and advisory services from the firm.

[00:17:59] So we hear time and time again that accountants really don't understand why the banking experience is so bad for their most beloved clients.

[00:18:06] So it's this real kind of like we don't get it.

[00:18:10] So at Alica, we've tried to completely reimagine how that particular interaction looks.

[00:18:16] So we've built a partnerships team who are focused just on working with accounting firms throughout the UK.

[00:18:22] And their role is to get to know the firm really, really well.

[00:18:25] So you would then know really confidently the person that you work with would also give the same level of service communication to your client.

[00:18:33] So for you, you feel much more confident because, you know, they're not just going to be passed through some sort of invisible conveyor belt generation game style.

[00:18:42] And hope you see the cuddly toy at the end of the line.

[00:18:47] Actually, what happens at Alica is that our team then speak to your client.

[00:18:52] It would normally be a 20 to 30 minute phone call where we would gather all the information and do the application on their behalf.

[00:18:59] And then typically our onboarding for a current account will take days.

[00:19:04] So it's typically just a few working days rather than a few working weeks, which is, as you said, the norm in the high street.

[00:19:13] So, yeah, it's a much more efficient, quicker, more personalized experience that we're delivering.

[00:19:19] And is there anything that we as accountants advising our clients can do to kind of help that process?

[00:19:25] I mean, other than making a referral, obviously, you know, is there things in the background that we can help with in terms of, I don't know,

[00:19:31] your AML prep, your documentation preparation, just getting the directors or shareholders of the business sort of all aligned in terms of their objectives, maybe?

[00:19:42] All of that.

[00:19:42] If you can do that, that's super.

[00:19:45] Also, the timing of it is quite important.

[00:19:47] I was speaking to one of our team recently and he was saying that one of his accounting partners actually times the data gathering from his clients on the board meetings.

[00:19:58] So the cycles that he has every month with his clients, if he's waiting for directors and their signatures, for example,

[00:20:03] he'll almost get them all in a room at one time and do that piece of work then.

[00:20:07] So I think that was a really interesting idea.

[00:20:09] But how do you also think about when do you time the conversation with your client?

[00:20:13] But certainly anything to help with the AML KYC information pack that you might have on behalf of your clients already, making sure that's up to date.

[00:20:21] And also just making sure that the clients know what the benefit is.

[00:20:26] You know, you're almost saying the experience is really, really good.

[00:20:31] But actually, the more important thing is some of the benefits you can receive from better cash management.

[00:20:35] So actually, how are we going to then use some of the rewards, for example, that Anika give or other banks give on savings, for example?

[00:20:41] And what can we do with that?

[00:20:43] And what else do your relationship managers expect from the customers that you're dealing with?

[00:20:48] I mean, you know, I guess if you've maybe got lending in particular in place or something like that, you're going to want regular MR.

[00:20:54] You're going to maybe want to have fairly regular contact with the client or customer themselves.

[00:21:01] What kind of expectations should we sort of set in terms of what the experience should be?

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:06] So every Anika business customer receives a dedicated relationship manager.

[00:21:11] So they receive their phone number, their email address.

[00:21:14] They'll see them face to face, in person or virtually.

[00:21:18] And being aware of what can they expect from that conversation is important.

[00:21:23] But also encouraging the business owner to really share, really keep us informed with any changes that are happening,

[00:21:31] any changes that are likely to happen, any concerns that they might have.

[00:21:34] One of the worst things that I think can happen is that we can go down a path of trying to help.

[00:21:40] And then at the last minute, find there's a red flag.

[00:21:42] Whereas actually, if we'd known about that red flag much, much earlier,

[00:21:45] we could then have enabled a different type of route or path, either for lending or something else.

[00:21:51] So I think just not being afraid to really over-communicate with your bank.

[00:21:56] We're in sort of slightly crazy sort of economic times at the moment.

[00:22:00] There's a little bit of instability, even though inflation's falling.

[00:22:03] And from experience, I know that businesses don't necessarily like to share bad news stories,

[00:22:08] particularly with their bank relationship manager.

[00:22:10] And even more so if they've maybe got lending or some other products in the periphery,

[00:22:15] because they fear that that might get withdrawn as a consequence of sharing that.

[00:22:20] And ultimately, if a business is going to struggle and something does have to be done

[00:22:24] from maybe withdrawing funds or withdrawing a credit facility, for example,

[00:22:28] that in itself is challenging, right?

[00:22:30] But there are ways to kind of do that effectively.

[00:22:33] Yeah, there are ways of doing it.

[00:22:35] There's a way of communicating.

[00:22:36] But as I said, the worst thing is to bury your head in the sand and hope for a different outcome

[00:22:41] or hope that if you don't share that information, they won't find out or something else will change.

[00:22:48] It really is around if you're seeing things early and spotting things early or have concerns,

[00:22:53] raise them, share them.

[00:22:55] And if, for example, your bank actually isn't receptive to that or you don't feel confident doing that,

[00:23:00] that's actually another question.

[00:23:01] Are you with the right bank?

[00:23:03] Like if you're not able to phone your bank manager and say,

[00:23:06] hey, I'm really nervous or I'm starting to feel uncomfortable

[00:23:11] or there's something that's going on here and I don't quite understand it.

[00:23:14] If you can't speak to your bank manager about that, give us a call.

[00:23:21] Very candidly, give us a call because I speak to our relationship managers all the time

[00:23:24] and they are brilliant.

[00:23:26] They are passionate people who love working with their businesses.

[00:23:30] Well, that sounds like the perfect place to stop.

[00:23:33] And yeah, Sophie, as always, it's a delight to talk to you.

[00:23:38] Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights over the last four little snippets

[00:23:43] of where businesses and banks and accountants can all kind of contribute to success.

[00:23:49] And yeah, I'm sure we'll hear from you again in the future.

[00:23:52] Thank you very much.

[00:23:53] Thank you.

[00:23:56] Who's buying a new car soon?

[00:23:59] Here are you two.

[00:24:00] Are you going to get a new Jag?

[00:24:01] Jag.

[00:24:02] I would give Jaguar a little look in.

[00:24:05] And I reckon that when you've got something that's an aging market,

[00:24:10] they've stepped up a notch to really identify that the purchasing power

[00:24:15] is in a different type of audience.

[00:24:19] It's never been represented before.

[00:24:21] Most of those people that used to buy Jaguars have probably all moved on to buy like

[00:24:24] Teslas or Polestars.

[00:24:27] Whereas if you look at something like Porsche,

[00:24:31] Porsche used to do really great campaigns that were anchored towards females

[00:24:35] because they knew that while it might be the gentleman that wanted to drive the Porsche,

[00:24:40] it was definitely his wife at home that opened the pocket strings to buy the Porsche.

[00:24:45] But I do think that like it's just it's interesting to watch people's reaction.

[00:24:52] And, you know, there is a time where I used to believe that brands that had that sort of heritage,

[00:24:59] which like Burberry or things like, you know, on that level had like historic English heritage,

[00:25:06] that they would sort of fit really well with that accountant market,

[00:25:13] the accounting market, lawyers, that sort of thing.

[00:25:16] And that's super assumptive of me.

[00:25:18] But it just I feel like I don't see that those are the sorts of people that,

[00:25:25] you know, would want to buy Jaguar with its old image as it was.

[00:25:31] But, you know, I think that the world has sort of moved on as sexier and it's like the brands are sexier.

[00:25:37] And then you've got Jaguar that's still like, oh, you know.

[00:25:42] The fat middle aged man car.

[00:25:45] That's what you're saying in Disney.

[00:25:46] You're just beating around the bush.

[00:25:47] No, I'm not.

[00:25:48] I'm saying that maybe the, you know,

[00:25:51] they kind of see that their market is in decline and they're no longer relevant to anyone anymore.

[00:25:59] Yeah, that's what I meant.

[00:26:01] The fat middle aged man, you know, brand.

[00:26:04] Hey, I'm becoming a fat middle aged man and I quite like the new logo.

[00:26:07] So maybe I'm a unique fat middle aged man.

[00:26:11] No, all I'm saying is if you looked at a luxury car that appeals to maybe like, you know, a more diverse audience,

[00:26:23] which brand would you name?

[00:26:24] Like which of the car brands would appeal?

[00:26:27] And I just think that they've done a really great pivot.

[00:26:30] And I'd like to see more accounting firms taking the same kind of bold move as something like Jaguar Land Rover,

[00:26:38] because so many of them are just steeped behind what feels like heritage brands.

[00:26:44] I loved what Flinders did.

[00:26:46] I think it's great that they came out with something that was like much more like,

[00:26:51] you know, it's colourful.

[00:26:53] Flinders had like the butterfly logo, different colours in it.

[00:26:56] There's something quite neutral about it.

[00:26:59] And look at how well their brand went down.

[00:27:01] So I think there's just, you know, space for those who want to have like other types of brands where they stand out.

[00:27:11] And I think they attracted people's attention.

[00:27:15] Mizuma, good example.

[00:27:16] B-Motion, Gravitate, those sorts of things where I feel like the brand is something fresh, new.

[00:27:24] And I think people want to associate themselves with brands like that,

[00:27:30] rather than just something that might be like, you know, a heritage.

[00:27:35] Yeah, I agree.

[00:27:36] I think the challenge for a lot of firms, having been at a couple of firms that have gone through rebrands in the past,

[00:27:41] is that it often feels like it's got to be a little bit iterative,

[00:27:46] because to go from something very traditional to something super sort of, you know, dynamic,

[00:27:51] a bit like some of those brands you mentioned in our accounting space,

[00:27:54] I think almost, I think it'd be a bit of a betrayal of what the firms are really like underneath,

[00:28:00] because they aren't particularly dynamic, exciting, interesting new firms.

[00:28:04] And that's the thing, it's like you couldn't then live up to the same values.

[00:28:07] But that's why I think the Jaguar thing is quite interesting,

[00:28:09] because, you know, the Jaguar brand, they've not really changed that much in reality, have they?

[00:28:14] You know, like they've got rid of the cat.

[00:28:15] You know, they changed the style of the logo and stuff.

[00:28:19] You know, and this isn't really affecting Jaguar Land Rover per se,

[00:28:23] because they've still got that separate branding around Range Rover and everything else anyway.

[00:28:27] But I think it allows the appeal of what they're doing to be seen a little bit different.

[00:28:35] Audi have done the same, right?

[00:28:36] Audi have just literally launched their Audi written brand in some far Eastern markets

[00:28:41] and got rid of the circle imagery that we're so familiar with.

[00:28:46] And, you know, there's been uproar about that, you know, using the name of the company as your brand.

[00:28:50] How outrageous is that?

[00:28:52] I'm getting rid of my Audi now.

[00:28:54] I have to get a Jag.

[00:28:57] I'm about to get one.

[00:28:59] Yeah, I mean, I do not.

[00:29:01] I want to think of all people's, like, it's interesting to see those people that have been in uproar.

[00:29:06] And I just want to hear more opinions of, like, how we see it in the accounting market,

[00:29:09] because it seems to be dominated by a lot of different heritage brands, you know,

[00:29:17] closely linked to the model where the partners were part of the branding.

[00:29:25] Things have moved on.

[00:29:26] So it's just a curiosity to know whether that's something that will carry on.

[00:29:31] I agree with you completely.

[00:29:33] But I also think there's a very British thing, isn't there, to get up in arms about a rebrand.

[00:29:37] Because we've had this in the past with the post office.

[00:29:40] They rebranded a few years ago, and that was a disaster to, what was it?

[00:29:43] Was it Insignia they rebranded to?

[00:29:45] I can't remember what it was now.

[00:29:47] And there's been a few others that have kind of gone somewhere with a rebrand and then had to back away from it.

[00:29:52] Like I say, I think, in some respects, Jaguar's rebrand is quite safe.

[00:29:56] You know, I think it's not something where they've come out with a completely new name, new logos, new colors, and everything else.

[00:30:03] So you'll still be able to buy Jaguars in green.

[00:30:06] You'll still be able to get what are visually appealing cars, which they've become, and all those kind of things.

[00:30:12] But yeah, clever.

[00:30:13] I think what's really interesting for me is the marketing that's gone around this relaunch of the brand has been much more inclusive.

[00:30:19] I think that's what really appeals to me.

[00:30:22] They've not called it Dexed, at least.

[00:30:29] Could you imagine that?

[00:30:29] An orange car.

[00:30:30] Oh, that'd be, I'd have to be a Lamborghini that one.

[00:30:33] It's only Lamborghini can get away with colors like that.

[00:30:40] Yet again, we're joined by Lucy Cohen from Mazuma.

[00:30:42] And I've got a whole bunch of things to talk to you about, Lucy.

[00:30:45] So this is going to be very exciting because you just keep doing mad and crazy things and announcing all sorts of fun stuff.

[00:30:50] So there's lots to cover.

[00:30:52] You have just recently announced that you're going to start looking for acquisition opportunities and targets.

[00:30:57] Yes.

[00:30:59] And I remember, I think it was last time we spoke, you sort of said, oh, do you know what?

[00:31:03] The kind of clients that we look after are the clients that no one else wants to look after.

[00:31:06] So is that what you're looking for?

[00:31:08] Are you looking for other practices where they've got clients that no one else wants to look after?

[00:31:11] Or what's the model that you're going for?

[00:31:12] So this is for us, this is a recognition that there are a couple of things at play in the accounting space, which means that exiting for certain firm owners at the moment is a real challenge.

[00:31:25] And you was obviously over the last few years, we talked loads about the kind of roll up models, the consolidators, a lot of money in there.

[00:31:33] And that have been focusing on a certain size of firm with a level of profitability to get that level of profitability and to get to that size is somewhere that a lot of firms can't get to.

[00:31:44] You know, you typically find you get to the kind of 350 to 500 K mark.

[00:31:48] And then to get past that, you need to make a load of investment into structure management.

[00:31:53] You have to really think it becomes a very, it's a very different business.

[00:31:57] Beyond that, then it takes years to get that profitability back up again.

[00:32:02] So if you're there about 500 K now, you're not getting the multiples you're wanting because it's not enough.

[00:32:08] You're then thinking, well, I need to get to this.

[00:32:10] You start trying to get on that path.

[00:32:12] You recognize it's not this linear thing.

[00:32:14] You're actually making less money than you were last year.

[00:32:16] And you're there thinking, what am I going to do?

[00:32:19] That's where we come in.

[00:32:21] That's kind of our sweet spot.

[00:32:22] Because honestly, for us, it doesn't really matter if you're making much of a profit or not.

[00:32:26] Because we have our own, we have the benefit of having built our technology, having our internal systems.

[00:32:34] What we're looking for is a good sticky client base, clients that match our ICP, firms that are interested in working the way that we work.

[00:32:44] Maybe some kind of your good staff that are interested in going on the journey too.

[00:32:48] And we're not overly prescriptive in the way that we do it.

[00:32:52] But we're looking really at firms that I think are looking to exit.

[00:32:55] But some of the other routes out are blocked to them, either because they're not on the level for PE to be interested.

[00:33:00] Or all the firms that might have bought them have now been bought by PE.

[00:33:04] And so they can't go anywhere.

[00:33:07] Likewise, again, we've got partners aging out who want to exit.

[00:33:12] They were looking at succession planning.

[00:33:14] And people don't want to buy into that model anymore because Gen Z can't afford a house.

[00:33:18] Why would they want to buy into an accountancy firm?

[00:33:20] So we're kind of working in that space, really.

[00:33:25] And it's a win-win.

[00:33:26] Everybody gets what they want.

[00:33:28] And I always believe that relationships work when everyone gets what they want or need.

[00:33:32] That's what happens.

[00:33:33] So yes, we've built that structure, which works really nicely.

[00:33:38] And I mean, how do you anticipate this working?

[00:33:41] I mean, I'm sure you're having discussions already and things like that.

[00:33:44] But if I'm a practice owner and I'm kind of looking at this going, oh, yeah, I'd really like to align myself with what you're doing.

[00:33:53] I can see myself exiting the business in the next 12, 18 months or something like that.

[00:33:58] But is there a process by which you kind of get into that business, look at whether that's a good fit for you and then sort of say, right, yes, you're going to be exiting here in 18 months, two years time.

[00:34:11] And this works for us.

[00:34:13] Or is it more of a you're going to go out and look for opportunities in the market?

[00:34:18] Both.

[00:34:19] Both.

[00:34:19] So I've had conversations with firms who are just like, I've had enough.

[00:34:24] Get me out.

[00:34:26] I can't do another January, which is fine.

[00:34:27] I think we all feel like that every year.

[00:34:29] I've had conversations with firms where they're thinking I want to exit in a year to 18 months and they want to start kind of gleaning.

[00:34:37] Quite rightly so.

[00:34:38] They want to start looking at what opportunities are on the table.

[00:34:40] They're building their pipeline.

[00:34:41] You know, we're not going to be the right fit for everybody.

[00:34:43] And that's absolutely fine.

[00:34:44] But I'll very happily make them an offer and say, look, this is what a structure could look like.

[00:34:50] Come back to us.

[00:34:51] We'll keep in touch.

[00:34:51] Come back to us when you're ready.

[00:34:52] If you're ready.

[00:34:54] So, yeah, it's really about it sounds like a really politician's answer, but there isn't like a one route to this because because ultimately, right, you're exiting the business that you've spent years building.

[00:35:04] You know, you're not flipping a house.

[00:35:06] So you you're not you're not you haven't bought a house to flip it and sell it on for a bit of a profit.

[00:35:11] This is something you poured your heart into.

[00:35:12] When I speak to firm owners, they all talk about they want to make sure that the clients are looked after.

[00:35:16] They want to make sure that like staff are looked after.

[00:35:19] They have real concerns over if they're serving a local community, that they're still present.

[00:35:24] So all of those things.

[00:35:25] Absolutely.

[00:35:26] They want to make sure their life's work isn't ruined.

[00:35:28] And I get that.

[00:35:29] Absolutely.

[00:35:30] It's finding a way to honor that whilst it works for us and build some efficiencies in there as well.

[00:35:36] Yeah.

[00:35:37] And I guess, like you say, you know, a lot of a lot of small firm owners are often very closely connected to their clients, aren't they?

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:43] So, I mean, what are you looking for?

[00:35:45] What's your what's your your ideal sort of potential practice or potential set of clients that you'd be looking to pick up?

[00:35:51] Yeah.

[00:35:51] So anything really from your GRF being about 100 grand to 700,000.

[00:35:57] We do go outside of those ranges as well.

[00:35:59] But that's kind of the sweet spot for us because you can quite quickly get a picture.

[00:36:05] There tends to be not too many weird anomalies in ones that size.

[00:36:08] You can quite quickly get a picture.

[00:36:09] They tend to have a type of client.

[00:36:12] They'd be working with a similar market to us.

[00:36:15] So small businesses, micro businesses.

[00:36:17] Ideally, they're doing you've got clients who are software agnostic.

[00:36:22] So clients who want somebody to do all the bookkeeping for them and that's all done rather than it be they're doing it themselves or they've got somebody in house and then it's coming to your end.

[00:36:31] And then, you know, very compliance driven, really compliance driven firms.

[00:36:34] You know, they haven't got a huge they've got a good spread.

[00:36:38] Lots of clients paying them lots of little bits of money instead of it being like they've got three clients that each pay them 100 grand a year.

[00:36:44] Like that's not us.

[00:36:45] Like we're not the people for you.

[00:36:47] We can't we can't service that.

[00:36:48] But yeah, that kind of proper spread of kind of high street accountant spread type business.

[00:36:53] That's exactly what we that's exactly what we like.

[00:36:56] Nice.

[00:36:56] And that kind of agnostic approach.

[00:36:59] What's the potential impact or is there a change of focus maybe for Mazat?

[00:37:03] Because obviously that's something that really fuels Mazuma's growth, right?

[00:37:06] An opportunity.

[00:37:07] So, yeah.

[00:37:08] Yeah.

[00:37:09] So then and that's that's why for us when I say I'm not too worried about that EPITDA figure because I can we can look at those efficiency savings where you've got people who are kind of quite leveraged on quite expensive tech stacks sometimes that maybe aren't appropriate for the size of business.

[00:37:24] Obviously Mazat can take away a lot of that legwork.

[00:37:27] Likewise, again, I hear this all the time from firms.

[00:37:30] They're kind of getting to the end of it because we know we've got a recruitment problem, a pipeline problem.

[00:37:34] And they're like, I can't get the stuff.

[00:37:35] I'm turning away business because I can't get stuff.

[00:37:39] I heard a stat the other day that I can't remember.

[00:37:41] I heard it from.

[00:37:42] So don't quote me on it too much.

[00:37:43] It's like 40% of firms are turning away work because they can't they can't service it because we don't because they don't have the staff.

[00:37:51] That's not so much of a problem for us because we can do more with fewer people because of the technology stack we're putting together.

[00:37:57] So, yeah, that that's that's I think why it's a nice opportunity is we've got that kind of critical mass that can help.

[00:38:04] Yeah.

[00:38:04] And I know that you've made a bunch of appointments to to the board recently.

[00:38:10] So are some of those appointments going to help with this kind of acquisition strategy?

[00:38:13] I mean, they bring a breadth of experience.

[00:38:16] Right.

[00:38:16] So yeah, surely going to help.

[00:38:18] Yeah.

[00:38:18] Yeah.

[00:38:19] And it's acquisition is like any other part of business, isn't it?

[00:38:22] You know, it's about where are your risks?

[00:38:25] Where are the opportunities?

[00:38:26] What's it going to cost you?

[00:38:27] Is it going to take twice as long or cost twice as much always?

[00:38:31] Is it you?

[00:38:32] Where are the areas that are going to be difficult in either pre or post integration?

[00:38:38] And it's not so much, I think, about having specialists in that particular field because there's lots of those around and there's plenty of people I can go to that.

[00:38:45] But on my board, it's people who are willing to sit and problem solve with me or for me to be able to go to them really honestly and say, I've got this that's come up.

[00:38:55] Didn't see that coming.

[00:38:57] Have you ever come across this?

[00:38:58] What would you do?

[00:38:59] And quite often when you've got those people who are super experienced, they're like, oh, this reminds me of time when this happened.

[00:39:04] Or this reminds me of when we had to do this thing.

[00:39:06] And they'll just share that experience.

[00:39:08] And it's really good in two ways.

[00:39:09] The first is you get kind of some clarity.

[00:39:11] And the second is you're like, OK, well, it happens in all industries to everybody.

[00:39:14] We're not alone here.

[00:39:16] This is just another part of business that we work through.

[00:39:20] And I think, you know, I don't.

[00:39:22] There's an awful lot of people getting quite obsessed with, well, they're a specialist in this and they're a specialist in that.

[00:39:27] But actually, business is business and most businesses have all of the same problems.

[00:39:33] Resources, money, speed, integrations, all that kind of stuff.

[00:39:38] There's a reason there's academic theory and all this stuff because actually you can study it across different industries and it's all pretty applicable.

[00:39:46] And having people you can have honest conversation with is, for me, the best thing.

[00:39:50] Having that rapport with somebody, that closeness.

[00:39:52] Yeah, I completely agree with you.

[00:39:54] I mean, I think that's one of the great things about working in an accountancy, right, is that you get to meet people who work in different industries, different parts of the market, you know, different levels of society.

[00:40:04] And you're absolutely right.

[00:40:06] Problems are the same the world over, you know, just different scales often.

[00:40:11] Yeah, just got more zeros on them.

[00:40:12] That's it.

[00:40:14] Totally, totally.

[00:40:16] So I guess, you know, there's been a whole bunch of sort of like activity in the market.

[00:40:23] You know, we know that there's PE money washing around all over the place.

[00:40:26] You know, the guys at Flinders have just obviously merged with somebody else and that's got some backing as well.

[00:40:31] So do you think this is just sort of going to continue rolling out?

[00:40:37] I mean, you know, I'm not asking you maybe to reflect on the PE market itself, but there is clearly challenges in terms of firms needing or wanting to exit.

[00:40:46] And challenges also with talent coming into the market, wanting to build and create their own firms.

[00:40:51] Yeah, I just think we're at this kind of really interesting point where it's the shape of what accountancy looks like in terms of delivery is changing probably more rapidly than it ever has.

[00:41:02] And I think for people who are ambitious and business minded and have a really good kind of model, it does present a good opportunity.

[00:41:11] And I think, you know, given the end-end market, which is kind of small businesses and the sheer volumes of those in the UK, that is a large market in and of itself.

[00:41:22] And so being the intermediaries that work with that market is interesting too.

[00:41:27] So yeah, it's about accessing that market.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:30] Obviously, with all this acquisition activity you've got planned, you need some money and some finance to do that.

[00:41:35] So, you know, what's your kind of sort of feeling on that in terms of going forward?

[00:41:40] I know you've done fundraising in the past.

[00:41:42] Yeah.

[00:41:43] Obviously, I'm sure you've got a bit of a war pot ready to go, as it were, to sort of spend.

[00:41:48] But that will only go so far and then you'll obviously have to go back out to raise again, I guess.

[00:41:52] I also look at this, and I think this is maybe a bit unusual in the accounting space, is that money is a resource to be used.

[00:41:57] And it's not something to just kind of hoard in a bank account.

[00:42:00] My investors probably don't want to hear me saying that.

[00:42:02] Sorry.

[00:42:03] But yeah, it's a resource to be used.

[00:42:05] And we've done a lot of investment this year.

[00:42:08] Developing technology is famously expensive, not a cheap endeavor.

[00:42:13] But you've either got time or you've got money, right?

[00:42:15] You can do something and you can do it in a really measured way at the rate of cash, which is fine.

[00:42:21] Like, that's absolutely fine.

[00:42:22] You can do that.

[00:42:22] And that's an option.

[00:42:23] That is absolutely an option.

[00:42:24] Or you can decide to take more of a risk and raise money, whether that's through debt or equity or whatever.

[00:42:30] It's always a risk.

[00:42:31] There's still a risk there.

[00:42:32] And back yourself and take some gambles and calculate the risk and hope they pay off.

[00:42:39] And I think how much money, as any business, how much money you raise, the sort of money you raise is dependent upon your risk appetite.

[00:42:48] And again, you know, control and ownership, even if you are still a majority shareholder, you still have a board.

[00:42:54] You're still going to have consent matters.

[00:42:55] You still don't have complete free reign.

[00:42:57] How comfortable are you with that relationship and being able to navigate that?

[00:43:03] I said to someone the other day in the last year or so, roughly a year since we took investment, I've developed more as a business leader in the last year than I probably have in the last five.

[00:43:14] Just because of the sorts of conversations I have to have and the honestly sheer terror of the whole thing.

[00:43:21] Like, just like, I'm not going to pretend I've got this all sorted out.

[00:43:25] I wake up every day pretty terrified, but in a good way, because it's a set of new challenges.

[00:43:31] Motivating, right?

[00:43:32] Nothing like a burning platform, like nothing to like, nothing like some fire under your feet to get you going.

[00:43:37] But it's, if you are somebody who's entrepreneurial and loves business, that's the thing you want, because you see yourself develop really quickly.

[00:43:46] And I had the really strange kind of out-of-body experience.

[00:43:48] I was sat in a meeting with my tech team the other day, and there was this screen up with all this stuff going on that, and I think lots of business owners, firm owners will relate to this.

[00:43:57] You know everything about your firm.

[00:43:59] There's nothing that goes on your firm that you don't know absolutely every detail about.

[00:44:02] When you scale, you have to bring in the right people, and you can't know the detail about everything.

[00:44:06] You have to, they have to manage up to you, and you have to kind of work with your OKRs or whatever.

[00:44:10] And obviously, I'm not, you know, I'm not a dev.

[00:44:12] I'm not a coder.

[00:44:13] So I'm up on there.

[00:44:14] All this stuff's on the screen.

[00:44:18] It goes off, and that's progressed.

[00:44:19] I was looking at this.

[00:44:20] I was going, wow, this is all kind of, like, they've just gone and done this, and this is great.

[00:44:24] And I kind of had this really strange out-of-body experience.

[00:44:27] But then I could hear myself talking about it.

[00:44:30] I was like, oh, this woman appears to know what she's talking about now.

[00:44:32] This is quite exciting.

[00:44:34] Yeah, it was really strange.

[00:44:35] But it's the having that being scared and kind of pushing yourself through that and learning that stuff really quickly is actually that's very, for me anyway, I love this stuff.

[00:44:48] It's very exciting personal development.

[00:44:49] I love it.

[00:44:50] Do you have anyone in sort of like an ops manager, ops director type role who can kind of help smooth out that process and manage it?

[00:44:56] I know you've got people who work around onboarding and stuff like that.

[00:44:59] But onboarding clients is slightly different from onboarding staff and practices and all the other stuff that goes with it, right?

[00:45:07] Yeah, so we have, we've got our people department who make sure we've got all the people and culture and the onboarding of the humans.

[00:45:16] And that side of it kind of slicked out.

[00:45:19] And that's about, it's not just the kind of the nuts and bolts HR stuff.

[00:45:23] That's about onboarding people into the culture, making sure they know who to ask for help, making sure where they need to go to.

[00:45:29] You know, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that everything's gone absolutely smoothly the last year.

[00:45:34] Of course it hasn't.

[00:45:35] There's been, there's been challenges.

[00:45:37] There's been plenty of sleep plus nights.

[00:45:40] There's been plenty of waking up at four in the morning, kind of thinking of having a heart attack.

[00:45:42] Oh God, like I've just remembered this thing.

[00:45:45] There's loads of that, obviously.

[00:45:48] The next stage is likely again, as we scale, I anticipate that we're probably going to need another layer of people to manage the whole thing.

[00:45:58] You know, what we have, what got us to here won't get us to there.

[00:46:00] And so we're going to need people who are specializing in those bits of the business, who are specializing in onboarding and managing those relationships and kind of, you know, integration, handover, all that stuff.

[00:46:13] Yeah.

[00:46:13] I imagine we probably are going to need more people, which I think is really interesting as a business because we're not just going through the hiring of accountants and stuff like that anymore.

[00:46:24] We're, we're, we've now got all these really interesting roles in other bits of the business, which if you're working for us, I think is really cool.

[00:46:31] Because if you, if you want to move diagonally or sideways, we actually have those, those spaces now.

[00:46:35] You've got the opportunity to do it.

[00:46:37] So maybe you came to us in one role.

[00:46:38] We've had it a couple of times now.

[00:46:39] You came to us in one role.

[00:46:40] You're definitely the right person to be on the bus.

[00:46:42] You've got the right attitude, but it's just not the role for you.

[00:46:44] We kind of have somewhere to put you now.

[00:46:46] And it's really nice.

[00:46:54] Does that lend itself to this scale opportunity that you've got?

[00:46:57] I hope so.

[00:46:59] I hope so.

[00:47:01] Yeah.

[00:47:01] When, say, I started the company, we were very clear that we didn't want to like name it Cohen and Hughes Associates or something because we wanted, first of all, we always knew that we wanted ourselves not to be the people doing delivery.

[00:47:13] And it's sometimes very hard to, especially in accountancy, remove yourself from that if your name is quite literally attached to it.

[00:47:21] However, we really wanted to build brand value in what Mazuma would stand for in and of itself, rather than just what I stood for or Stacey stood for.

[00:47:32] I think the brand can have its own identity, its own set of core beliefs and values.

[00:47:36] And for me, that's what good brand is.

[00:47:38] Brand isn't just a logo.

[00:47:39] No one cares about your logo, but they care about what your brand stands for.

[00:47:44] So companies like Patagonia, for example, other outdoor clothing suppliers are available.

[00:47:48] But they have really strong core values as a company and people really associate and identify with it.

[00:47:55] That's more what it's about is identifying and associating with it.

[00:47:59] And that's what we're building.

[00:48:00] That linkage between culture, focus, ethos, brand is really important.

[00:48:07] I think that's quite often lost in our accounting world is quite often you've just got a name above a door.

[00:48:11] But then you get into the weeds of what that business and what that firm does.

[00:48:15] And, you know, culture is sitting in pockets of teams and departments all over the place and not really tied together with the outward facing persona of the organization.

[00:48:24] Right.

[00:48:25] Yeah.

[00:48:25] And, you know, we've gone through that.

[00:48:27] And it's sometimes quite a shock to kind of have the mirror held up to you by your own team as to what they think the culture is versus what you think the culture is.

[00:48:34] And it's that whole debate is culture top down or is it bottom up or is it what is it?

[00:48:39] And we we we've done and we continue to do quite a lot of work on that.

[00:48:43] And it was quite you can be quite a shock where you've got one department who are like loving life and having an amazing time and think the culture is this.

[00:48:48] And then another team who are like really stressed and they think the culture is another thing.

[00:48:51] You're like, well, it's neither of those things.

[00:48:54] We screwed up here.

[00:48:55] Like we need to fix this.

[00:48:57] And obviously, if you're scaling up pace, that deviation, if you go off course slightly, you go off course a lot more quickly at 100 miles an hour than you do at 20 miles an hour.

[00:49:06] So you have to kind of get ahead of this stuff.

[00:49:09] Yeah, it's it is about kind of who do we want to be?

[00:49:13] Who what do people who work for us want to say about us?

[00:49:16] What do people who interact with us want to say about us?

[00:49:19] And in your brand and your culture can be anything.

[00:49:23] You know, when you look at Ryanair, for example, their brand is a very particular sort of thing and their cult is a very particular sort of thing.

[00:49:31] Their social media reflects that, you know, quite sassy on social media.

[00:49:35] That wouldn't work if you're very kind of you upper upper end you high ticket price item.

[00:49:43] You probably couldn't behave like that.

[00:49:45] And it's all kind of it all slots in and it's all down to like what's the language you use in your emails?

[00:49:50] How are you communicating with people?

[00:49:52] Are you being casual?

[00:49:53] What's your what's your brand tone of voice?

[00:49:56] All that stuff is that.

[00:49:57] And that's what branding is.

[00:49:58] It's not just your logo, which is why I think it's interesting that everyone lost their mind over the new Jaguar logo.

[00:50:03] Because I'm like, it's so much more than just the logo.

[00:50:07] It's a reflection of their saying where they want to go as a company.

[00:50:11] And that's what your that's what your brand is.

[00:50:14] Well, India and I spoke about this and it was like, well, yeah, OK, they've changed.

[00:50:17] They've changed the font of the words and they've dropped the actual, you know, the cat from the Jaguar from the from the brand.

[00:50:24] But actually, when you look at what they've been portraying externally, you know, it's it's a multicultural, diverse appeal to men and women, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:50:32] You know, so like you say, so much, so much more to it.

[00:50:35] So much more to it.

[00:50:35] I do have one final question and I will let you go.

[00:50:39] And that is just on the on the scale thing, because I'm going to compare you to assets for a second here, which might completely blow your mind.

[00:50:48] But I know, you know, I know, I think assets are, you know, when you look at the number of clients that they look after, I think they are the largest accountancy firm in the UK now.

[00:50:56] They've got something bonkers, like about 40,000 clients or something that they look after.

[00:51:01] And I know that that creates its own intrinsic sort of scale problems and challenges for them because, you know, IT infrastructure, the whole works is really, really challenging.

[00:51:11] But how are you going to address that in the next, I don't know, three to five years when Mizooma suddenly gets out there and you're looking at, oh, my God, we've got 20,000, 30,000 micro small businesses, whatever it is on the books and dealing with that.

[00:51:24] Oh, yeah, it's going to be a gigantic headache.

[00:51:27] It's going to be an absolute nightmare.

[00:51:29] Yeah, yeah, it is.

[00:51:32] That's that piece at scale.

[00:51:34] You know, we already have thousands and thousands of clients across the UK.

[00:51:37] So we're already kind of and we're and the scale at which you go.

[00:51:41] I said this year has been a year of every system we've had basically has either crumbled and we've had to replace or we can see the cracks in it.

[00:51:49] And it's just what what is appropriate for you at 2000?

[00:51:52] It's not going to be there for 10,000.

[00:51:54] It's not going to be there for 100,000.

[00:51:55] And you need and this is where the bravery comes in is backing yourself.

[00:52:01] If you buy if you buy into the system that's going to do you for the next 20 percent, you're going to have to redo it all again.

[00:52:07] When you get to the next 20 percent, you have to back yourself to build those big architecture systems now that goes, OK, our goal is this.

[00:52:17] And we're nowhere near it now, but we're backing ourselves and we're going to invest in that.

[00:52:21] And that is a risk and that costs money.

[00:52:23] And that is money you're getting no return on probably for a couple of years.

[00:52:27] And that's where you have to have those systems that are big enough to cope because the last thing in the world you want to happen is for your sales engine to be going really well and your acquisition engine to be going real and your systems let you down.

[00:52:41] And there's that wonderful phrase.

[00:52:42] I think it's from Atomic Habits, which is you don't grow to the level of your ambitions.

[00:52:47] You fall to the level of your systems.

[00:52:48] And that lives in my head all the time.

[00:52:53] Every week I seem to have a conversation about a system that needs changing, SOPs that need updating.

[00:52:59] It's living now.

[00:53:00] It's organic and living.

[00:53:01] So, yeah, it's on our radar.

[00:53:06] And that's, again, why we've built MazApp because trying to Frankenstein's monster together lots of different systems to get what you want, you introduce risk.

[00:53:16] You introduce human error because none of these things always work automatically.

[00:53:19] You introduce error traps and you introduce potential for risk in security.

[00:53:25] So you have to build something where you have as much control as you can, built, tenanted and architecture to scale, but that you are investing heavily in something that is the future you, not current you.

[00:53:40] And it's the Lucy that, I think of this as the Lucy that puts a couple of paracetamol on the side of the bed in a glass of water.

[00:53:47] And when I've had a night out, you, current Lucy, did that for future Lucy and she thanks her for it.

[00:53:52] And that's what we're trying to do.

[00:53:54] Well, there you go.

[00:53:54] So you heard it there from Lucy.

[00:53:56] So, you know, if you want to invest in your future self, make sure on a big night out, you've got a glass of water, a couple of paracetamol by the bed, ready to go.

[00:54:03] That's it.

[00:54:04] And you'll all be sorted.

[00:54:06] Future you will thank current you for it, I promise you.

[00:54:09] If only, if only I'd had that insight 20 years ago, Lucy.

[00:54:13] You've avoided a lot of headaches.

[00:54:17] Absolutely.

[00:54:18] Well, I think, I think that's a wrap.

[00:54:20] I think that's a great place to finish off there.

[00:54:22] But thank you.

[00:54:23] Thank you very much, Lucy, as always, for your time and to spend, spend a little bit of time to talk to us about your future plans and everything else.

[00:54:29] And, of course, we wish you every success.

[00:54:31] I'm sure we'll catch up at an event or bump into each other or whatever it is.

[00:54:35] And I really enjoy watching your story and watching you grow and develop with the business and everything else.

[00:54:42] And I should also mention that you're going to be the AAT president fairly soon, aren't you?

[00:54:47] Because you've got the vice president role that you've just stepped into.

[00:54:50] Yeah.

[00:54:50] So, yeah, AAT vice president at the moment, which is a huge honor.

[00:54:54] Like, I'm absolutely huge honor.

[00:54:56] I'm a huge fan of AAT.

[00:54:58] I literally wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't decided to do an apprenticeship when I was about 20.

[00:55:03] So, yeah.

[00:55:04] Amazing.

[00:55:05] Perfect.

[00:55:05] What a story.

[00:55:06] Love it.

[00:55:07] Well, thank you.

[00:55:07] Thank you very much, Lucy.

[00:55:08] Awesome, as always.

[00:55:09] Thank you.

[00:55:12] Thanks for joining us on today's episode.

[00:55:15] Leave us a review.

[00:55:16] Give us some feedback.

[00:55:17] Share and like.

[00:55:18] And we'll catch you on the next one.