AI Assistants, Acquisitions & Christmas Chaos: 2024 in Review!

[00:00:00] So, if this is going out in the trailer, no Lee, make sure you've got AI versions of us being idiots as we always are.

[00:00:08] Do you think AI has finally this year recognised that I have melanin? Or do you think it's still as racist as it was last year? What do you think?

[00:00:17] Oh yeah, yeah, who knows? Yeah, we should revisit that. We should see if AI has moved on a little bit.

[00:00:22] It's just been co-pilot after co-pilot after co-pilot after assistant after assistant after assistant.

[00:00:27] But what I don't think we saw was actually anything tangible.

[00:00:32] We had, surprisingly enough, some acquisition news and lots on it.

[00:00:36] Zero this year announced they were going to retire classic invoicing. It is the longest retirement period, longer than most accountants who stay on as consultants and don't mention pricing.

[00:00:48] We saw QuickBooks Enterprise launching as well.

[00:00:50] We're getting rid of 1200 people but we're replacing them with 1200 people.

[00:00:53] All of a sudden payroll became the service line that everyone's a seller base.

[00:00:57] Free Agent was like they're on every single app news episode. It was crazy how much was being released.

[00:01:01] The concept of offshore rink doesn't really lend itself to teams. It was staring me in the face for two decades.

[00:01:08] Sometimes you've just got to acknowledge that people screw up. And if people in the marketplace are not mature enough to deal with that, then that doesn't sound like a nos problem. That sounds like a them problem.

[00:01:17] Lee, don't put that in the release.

[00:01:24] Merry Christmas from us three at the Digitals in a Cruel World podcast.

[00:01:29] This is going out on Christmas Day.

[00:01:31] So what the first thing we want to do is say anyone that does actually listen to this on Christmas Day, please drop us a note.

[00:01:37] We want to know who our dedicated listeners are, those that think the best present for Christmas Day is receiving some app news from the three lovely tech focused idiots that we are recording in our Santa hats.

[00:01:53] Well, apart from John, who is a bit of a Scrooge and diving into what happened in 2024.

[00:01:58] This is our summary episodes we tend to do every year.

[00:02:01] So before we dive into that, Indy, you're looking magical in your branded Christmas hat.

[00:02:08] How are you?

[00:02:10] I know. John is so jelly.

[00:02:12] I think that for anyone that does listen, we should give them a special little gift in their stocking.

[00:02:18] How about something like peanut butter, Ryan?

[00:02:20] You know?

[00:02:22] It's very, that's so 2023.

[00:02:24] That's not 2024 at all, Indy.

[00:02:26] It's 2023.

[00:02:27] Okay, boomer.

[00:02:30] No.

[00:02:31] Oh good, I know.

[00:02:32] Like my cute little hat.

[00:02:33] I'm so happy with it.

[00:02:35] It's so happy.

[00:02:36] Merry Christmas to everyone listening.

[00:02:38] It's been lovely that you've been able to join us and listen to our Dosset Toes throughout the year.

[00:02:44] And yeah, looking forward to another great year ahead of podcasting.

[00:02:48] Cool.

[00:02:49] And John, what do you think you've got in your stocking?

[00:02:53] Oh, well, apart from my leg.

[00:02:56] I don't know.

[00:02:57] Lots of coal.

[00:02:58] Big Christmas stocking.

[00:02:59] Lots of coal.

[00:03:00] Probably lots of coal.

[00:03:01] Yeah.

[00:03:01] I imagine.

[00:03:02] I mean, I can't believe that Indy has our own branded, you know, Christmas hat.

[00:03:07] It's absolutely amazing.

[00:03:08] And I mean, it's 2024 has been a delightful year to be joined by you two ho ho hoes, hasn't it?

[00:03:15] So it's...

[00:03:17] Hey, I'm taking that.

[00:03:24] Yeah, I bet you are.

[00:03:25] Yeah.

[00:03:25] Well, what I think we should do is task Lee with AI-ing us.

[00:03:29] Is that a word?

[00:03:30] AI-ing us?

[00:03:31] For this year.

[00:03:32] So if this is going out in the trailer, note, Lee, make sure you've got AI versions of us being idiots as we always are.

[00:03:41] AI has finally this year recognized that I have melanin.

[00:03:45] Or do you think it's still as racist as it was last year?

[00:03:49] What do you think?

[00:03:50] Oh, yeah.

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:51] Who knows?

[00:03:51] Yeah, we should revisit that.

[00:03:53] We should see if AI has moved on a little bit.

[00:03:56] Yeah.

[00:03:56] I have to say though, I have enjoyed 2024.

[00:03:58] It's been a great year to do the podcast with you guys.

[00:04:01] And yeah, I mean, I guess if anyone is listening to this on Christmas Day, you know, blimey.

[00:04:09] I mean, well done.

[00:04:10] Congratulations.

[00:04:10] And if this is the, is this your way of escaping from your family?

[00:04:16] Lord, Lord help us.

[00:04:17] You know, what is wrong?

[00:04:18] I think this is the perfect escape.

[00:04:20] And for those that are listening, we're going to, as I said, dive into the summary of the biggest news in 2024, as well as talk to, as we have been doing, Vibbleshev, about what's been going on in the world of advanced track.

[00:04:32] But, unfortunately, it's mostly going to be John and I doing the summary in the AIM co-CEO world has to disappear, do lots of more interesting things, and leave us to dive through what has been, yeah, probably our biggest talking points of the pod in the last year.

[00:04:49] Yeah.

[00:04:49] No Christmas break for these important people.

[00:04:51] No, exactly.

[00:04:53] I realize I'm jingling.

[00:04:54] I'm just jingling a lot.

[00:04:55] You are jingling.

[00:04:56] Bye, Andy.

[00:04:58] Bye.

[00:04:58] See you in 2025.

[00:05:00] See you in 2025.

[00:05:01] See you in 2025.

[00:05:02] See you in 2025.

[00:05:02] Hi, Andy.

[00:05:02] Merry Christmas.

[00:05:03] Happy New Year.

[00:05:05] Hope your dog is enjoying himself just as much as in 2023.

[00:05:11] Wow.

[00:05:12] Wow.

[00:05:12] This could be classed as bullying.

[00:05:14] I don't think you're allowed to do that as co-CEO anymore.

[00:05:17] Oh, what?

[00:05:18] I'm not going to give you a clue.

[00:05:20] You have to take this with me.

[00:05:22] We established that Lee was our HR department.

[00:05:24] HR.

[00:05:24] Come on, Lee.

[00:05:25] Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:25] Sort it out, Lee.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:27] I'm putting in a complaint.

[00:05:28] Formal complaint.

[00:05:29] All whining.

[00:05:30] All whining for a warning, Lee.

[00:05:31] All I'm in.

[00:05:32] Me?

[00:05:33] What?

[00:05:34] A written warning.

[00:05:35] Yeah.

[00:05:36] Don't put a given in a written warning.

[00:05:38] You can't read.

[00:05:45] All right.

[00:05:45] So, John, we're going to dive into the big news.

[00:05:49] And I thought we might as well start in probably the most topical area, which is AI.

[00:05:53] It moved from open banking.

[00:05:55] It's now AI.

[00:05:55] That's all you talk about, John.

[00:05:57] So, what were the biggest AI releases in 2024?

[00:06:01] Well, Ryan.

[00:06:03] Yeah.

[00:06:03] Since I have moved on from open banking and open banking has moved on from me, let's talk

[00:06:07] about AI.

[00:06:08] And of course, the thing that everyone wanted to do last year or this year was the launch

[00:06:13] of an AI assistant.

[00:06:15] So, we had Intuit Assist.

[00:06:16] We had Sage Co-Pilot and we had Jack's, which was just ask zero coming from zero.

[00:06:22] Along with, of course, Microsoft Co-Pilot being opened out to the wider world.

[00:06:27] You'd been removed the 300 seat limit back in March, I think it was.

[00:06:31] So, it's just been Co-Pilot after Co-Pilot after Co-Pilot after Assistant after Assistant

[00:06:36] after Assistant.

[00:06:37] And of course, everyone gets really sticky about what these names should be and whether

[00:06:41] they should be a Co-Pilot, whether they should be an Assistant, whether they should reference

[00:06:44] ChatGPT or language models and stuff.

[00:06:46] So, it's a marketing fun fair, that's fair to say, isn't it?

[00:06:51] It is.

[00:06:52] And I think the main thing is there was lots of announcements.

[00:06:54] There was announcements before they were supposed to announce them because their competitors

[00:06:57] announced them and it got very confusing.

[00:06:58] But what I don't think we saw, at least initially, was actually anything tangible.

[00:07:05] Towards the end of 2024, we're starting to see some signs of some good bits that are

[00:07:11] coming through the AI assistants.

[00:07:12] And I'm excited for what's going to come in 2025, but that's not what this episode's about.

[00:07:17] This episode's about 2024.

[00:07:19] So, yes, there was the launch of AI assistants utilization of mostly probably AI meeting tools

[00:07:27] to which I am fed up of seeing and asking be turned off in meetings.

[00:07:32] That was probably the trend of 2024.

[00:07:35] But I expect this to expand more in 2025.

[00:07:38] I want to know on that meeting point, on that AI meeting assistant point, is like at what point does it just become socially acceptable to have an AI assistant in your meeting?

[00:07:47] And you don't have to ask the question.

[00:07:48] Does anyone mind if my AI assistant joins the meeting anymore?

[00:07:52] I think it's a legal requirement because you're gathering data.

[00:07:55] So, I think it's actually going to become, and what I'm seeing more now as we get to the end of 2024, is there's a pre-meeting like note that comes out going, be aware.

[00:08:06] There's going to be an AI assistant in there, probably when you join, recording everything you say and do.

[00:08:11] Please let us know if you don't want that to occur.

[00:08:13] And I think just like those disclaimers that you get, you know, on, you know, when you have to sign up for cookies, right?

[00:08:19] It makes no sense.

[00:08:20] No one will read it.

[00:08:21] No one will pay attention.

[00:08:22] So, they're entirely meaningless.

[00:08:23] So, we might as well just get over ourselves and just deal with the fact that there's going to be an AI meeting assistant in all of our meetings.

[00:08:29] And who cares?

[00:08:31] I mean, I've never worried about what I said.

[00:08:32] And if it's recorded, I'm sure at some point I'll come back to buy me.

[00:08:35] But there you go.

[00:08:37] Wait for that day, you're soon, John.

[00:08:39] All right.

[00:08:40] Moving on from AI, there's been some marketable growth from some of the players in this market.

[00:08:46] Some that, you know, work with us that we're very lucky to have as partners, as sponsors.

[00:08:52] And the two that entered the fastest growing UK business list in 2024 were iPlicit and AlicaBank, whose growth was insane at times.

[00:09:02] I think Alica may have even hit the number one spot.

[00:09:05] Not certain on that.

[00:09:06] Yeah, AlicaBank were definitely top of the league.

[00:09:09] So, I think they were all very proud of that over there.

[00:09:12] And of course, we spoke to Sophie Houssak fairly recently, didn't we, on the series?

[00:09:16] And in the context of all of the news, something that had completely passed me by at the time was that she used to work for Receipt Bank in the good old days.

[00:09:23] So, she is orange through and through, isn't she?

[00:09:26] She is.

[00:09:27] She is a true ginger, like my heart.

[00:09:32] Like your heart.

[00:09:34] Well, yeah.

[00:09:35] I mean, it's because I don't have hair anymore.

[00:09:38] So, I can't physically display gingerism, but it's ingrained in me.

[00:09:43] If it gives you a heart as ginger, you've got a blood flow problem.

[00:09:47] Yeah, it's true.

[00:09:48] I'll probably need to go to a doctor about that.

[00:09:50] But yeah, it's, I think if you've not interacted with Alica or Ioplicit in 2024, then you're probably going to, or should be working with them, talking to them in 2025, because their growth has been phenomenal.

[00:10:03] And that's always backed by success.

[00:10:05] You know, they're doing really good things in the marketplace.

[00:10:08] They're getting some really good success stories.

[00:10:10] So, if you are looking at mid-tier finance solutions or need to, or business banking, these are the two players that you probably should at least be having a conversation with.

[00:10:20] Absolutely.

[00:10:20] I completely agree with that.

[00:10:21] And I guess, yeah, if they don't hear from you, you'll probably hear from them.

[00:10:25] So, it's fair to say, because they are very proactive at getting around talking to people in the industry.

[00:10:30] Moving on then, we had, surprisingly enough, some acquisition news and lots on it.

[00:10:39] And Access, of course, was super acquisitive in the last 12 months or so.

[00:10:44] So, they bought Change GPS, they bought Lightyear, they bought Tradify and they bought, oh God, I'm going to get this name wrong, but Hire ARA, Hire ARA.

[00:10:52] I don't even know how to say it, but I think the two big ones that really affected us in our space were the ones with Lightyear and Tradify.

[00:11:01] So, just a reminder for anyone that's not familiar, but Lightyear, the OCR products, particularly aimed at slightly larger organizations.

[00:11:07] So, a great fit, I think, with Access, obviously with their dimensions, products and Access Financials.

[00:11:13] And then Tradify, which is a slightly more off-kilter acquisition it felt at the time because Tradify typically was operating in the smaller tradies space,

[00:11:22] very much plugged into Xero in the Xero ecosystem.

[00:11:26] And definitely not an area of business that Access from their finance products point of view tends to operate in.

[00:11:33] But they were the two big ones, weren't they? And great news for everyone that's been involved in terms of building those products and then getting them out to sale to Access and anyone else.

[00:11:42] Yeah, so those are probably the biggest things in the UK market, but the Change GPS, well, acquisition was the biggest thing in the Australian market because they are huge over there.

[00:11:53] And I'm not even sure we captured all of the Access acquisitions in the summary.

[00:11:57] They seem to have just gone on an absolute spree through 2024.

[00:12:01] We know that their playbook was, you know, they had a lot of old products.

[00:12:06] They built a cloud finance system and rather than try and rebuild all of their operational systems,

[00:12:11] their plan was go out and pick some of the best leading providers that are already SaaS products in the market, acquire them and then build them in.

[00:12:17] And they don't think they've done that in 2024.

[00:12:19] I have a feeling that's going to be a big play in 2025,

[00:12:23] slowly linking all of those products together for a central hub that connects them into their finance system.

[00:12:29] And once they do that, they can have one heck of a suite, right?

[00:12:31] That will launch the prominence of Access as a bottom end.

[00:12:39] That's probably the wrong term for it, but a smaller ERP.

[00:12:41] Well, I think that's going to be the interesting play for them, right?

[00:12:44] Isn't it?

[00:12:44] Is that, yeah, I totally agree with you.

[00:12:46] They've got to wrap all of these products up into their wider suite.

[00:12:49] And we've seen that they've done that before with Unleashed and Mintsoft and other products that they've acquired in the past.

[00:12:55] And they're doing that to a degree with Fathom, of course.

[00:12:59] And is the Access objective?

[00:13:02] Is the strategy for them to kind of move lower down the ERP space and try and challenge Xero QuickBooks and maybe iPlisit and Xledger and others?

[00:13:11] Or do they want to carry on occupying that sort of larger business space, which is where they've historically been,

[00:13:18] and just have these other products feeding them data and information and making them money, hopefully.

[00:13:23] I guess that's the idea.

[00:13:24] And then Xero this year announced probably, I think, in January 24 that they were going to retire classic invoicing.

[00:13:32] I think it was September, October they planned it for.

[00:13:35] But we're now at the end of 2024 and classic invoicing still exists.

[00:13:38] It is the longest retirement period, longer than most accountants who stay on as consultants.

[00:13:43] But eventually the classic invoicing will be going.

[00:13:46] And I wonder what else they will start to retire as they go through this engine of getting rid of their old tech and replace it with a new side.

[00:13:52] But the bit that they kept quiet was the retiring of Xero Go.

[00:13:57] It was announced.

[00:13:58] It was announced in 2023, I think, maybe 2022.

[00:14:01] And then it was gone in 2024.

[00:14:04] I think, yeah, Xero Go is probably the shortest lived Xero product ever known to mankind, wasn't it?

[00:14:09] And I guess maybe they could blame MTD and the delays for killing that off.

[00:14:15] But it was never it was Xero Go was never a goer, was it?

[00:14:19] Let's be perfectly honest.

[00:14:20] It was it was a rubbish product.

[00:14:21] But yeah, the classic invoicing thing has been a real hokey-cokey thing, hasn't it?

[00:14:25] And don't mention pricing.

[00:14:27] I said we don't mention pricing.

[00:14:29] But we think actually on the pricing side, there's probably some positives in 2025.

[00:14:33] So look out for that.

[00:14:34] I'm sure we'll be covering in the podcast.

[00:14:35] But there were positives.

[00:14:37] There were some big positives for Xero this year.

[00:14:38] They partnered with Deputy to expand across the market, especially, I believe, in Australia.

[00:14:44] But they also possibly one of the best acquisitions of the year was Xero's acquisition of Sift.

[00:14:49] Was it for the tech?

[00:14:50] Was it for the data?

[00:14:52] Who will actually know apart from those that made the decision in Xero?

[00:14:55] But there's some big things from this.

[00:14:57] I think this was a masterstroke of an acquisition, especially for the UK market.

[00:15:02] Yeah, I think so as well.

[00:15:03] And I mean, I think, you know, Sift had really taken certainly the UK market by storm.

[00:15:09] And I'm truly certain they'd also done pretty well in other markets as well.

[00:15:13] You know, that kind of all you can eat offering that they had.

[00:15:16] What was it?

[00:15:17] 299 a month.

[00:15:18] You could pretty much have as many organizations you wanted on the product.

[00:15:21] You know, genius masterstroke from Sift.

[00:15:23] And they built and developed hard as well with that product.

[00:15:27] You know, going from just reporting to doing consolidations to doing some of the stuff that you saw with Dex Precision and other things.

[00:15:33] So, yeah.

[00:15:34] I mean, we talked about this at the time, didn't we?

[00:15:37] And sort of said, you know, this was the acquisition they should have always made when Fathom went to Access, which we talked about.

[00:15:42] And when Xavio went to Dex.

[00:15:45] So they're kind of, you know, making up for lost ground and missed opportunities in the past.

[00:15:48] But, you know, a cracking acquisition, nonetheless, as you say.

[00:15:52] So from the sublime to the ridiculous, of course, we had Intuit, you know, making a whole bunch of layoffs as a consequence of the changes of AI, which we talked about at the top of this.

[00:16:03] And I can't remember the numbers now, but was it something like 1,200 people they laid off, Ryan?

[00:16:07] Can you remember?

[00:16:08] Yeah, it was 1,200 or 1,500.

[00:16:09] I can't remember.

[00:16:10] It was a big number, wasn't it?

[00:16:11] Huge.

[00:16:11] But it wasn't just a layoff, was it?

[00:16:13] It was like a replacement.

[00:16:14] We're getting rid of 1,200 people, but we're replacing them with 1,200 people.

[00:16:17] It's just, you know, changing the skill set to be entirely focused on AI.

[00:16:22] That's their play.

[00:16:23] And although we've not seen much on Intuit Assist in the UK, we believe it's making bigger waves in the US.

[00:16:28] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:16:29] And I guess in the US market in particular, they've probably got a lot more competition.

[00:16:33] You know, they've got products like Digits and there's a whole bunch of others out there which are doing things with AI in products like Xero and QuickBooks, which is, you know, really throwing down a challenge though.

[00:16:42] I guess the flip side of this and the really positive thing was that we saw QuickBooks Enterprise launching as well.

[00:16:47] You know, that was a massive product that they launched out there, not just in terms of its scale and its capabilities, because it's really an ERP.

[00:16:56] They were kind of challenging that ERP market, but also in terms of pricing.

[00:17:00] So we're incredibly aggressive with that.

[00:17:01] I don't think it's come to the UK yet as far as I know.

[00:17:04] Still in the US only, but it's only going to be a matter of time, I'm sure, before they bring that over to the UK because experience shows that that's the way that it works.

[00:17:12] But it looked incredibly capable and it's wrapped up so many of the other things that they've acquired into that stable of products that Intuit have now.

[00:17:21] But it's not just a sort of a QuickBooks on steroids.

[00:17:26] It's so much more than that, isn't it?

[00:17:28] Definitely.

[00:17:29] And I don't think that was an omen that you had a siren going off while you were talking about QuickBooks Enterprise.

[00:17:33] But we are expecting some big things in 2025 going from now what they're absolutely micro level system going all the way up.

[00:17:43] And you can scale a thousand way.

[00:17:45] You can scale up through the products as you grow without having to do this massive shift, moving your data from one place to another into a full enterprise system.

[00:17:52] And I think, yeah, that's going to be quite a, well, different play, unique play now in the UK market.

[00:17:58] Something that I don't think is replaceable with anything else.

[00:18:01] So you could go from tiny, tiny one man band all the way through to huge business all the way through your Intuit journey.

[00:18:08] But huge news towards the end of 2024.

[00:18:11] And that was that Dext sold to Iris.

[00:18:16] Now, I think we talked about this on one of the recent pods.

[00:18:19] It wasn't that, no, what would be the word?

[00:18:23] It was a bit predictable by us because we predicted it.

[00:18:26] But it was, you say that on so many times.

[00:18:31] I think it must be like the fourth or fifth, right?

[00:18:34] But we have seen a lot of development from Dext that have really pushed the roadmap.

[00:18:43] They brought it forward.

[00:18:44] They brought out lots of releases and good ones as well.

[00:18:46] Things that have changed the product fundamentally.

[00:18:48] And we know that things are coming in 2025 as well.

[00:18:51] Watch this space.

[00:18:52] We've got some possibly the biggest releases from them coming in 2025.

[00:18:57] So, yeah, it's a big sell.

[00:18:59] Something that I think will be, I don't know, better for Dext, do you think?

[00:19:04] I mean, I think it will be better for Dext.

[00:19:08] I mean, you know, in theory, they've got the capital and the power of Iris behind them.

[00:19:14] They've got the market footprint that brings and everything else.

[00:19:16] And I'm not sure it brings too much more in terms of technical capability and skills.

[00:19:21] I'm sure Iris do have some good technical people and everything else, but not necessarily in the market and the things that Iris and Dext do in terms of the crossover.

[00:19:31] But I mean, I think we should shout out, you know, Steven Edgington, who's their products and technology officer there.

[00:19:37] Because, you know, he's been with the organization, you know, almost two years at Dext.

[00:19:41] And I think, you know, he's probably been one of the key acquisitions that they made in terms of bringing him in, you know, and having a significant impact.

[00:19:51] So I know speaking to people within Dext that everyone speaks incredibly highly of him in terms of his ability to kind of drive things forward.

[00:20:00] And I think we've seen the fruition of that this year, as we said, you know, Dext have consistently been smashing out really good things.

[00:20:07] Not necessarily huge innovation. It sometimes has brought them up to parity with some of their competitors.

[00:20:12] But it's been absolutely incredible.

[00:20:15] And, you know, we should remember as well that Steven's got a background having worked at EpiCore, one of the really big like ERP solutions that big multinationals tend to use.

[00:20:23] So he's used to working with big products at big scale.

[00:20:25] So I think if Dext and Iris in particular have ambitions to really take this on to the next level, get into that North American market, get into all the big markets as well.

[00:20:34] Steven's got the, you know, the background and the skill set to hopefully be able to do that and take them on to the next level.

[00:20:38] Unless, of course, Iris poach him and take him into their board because Iris desperately needs someone to do something good with their products.

[00:20:44] Oh, please don't do that. He has been a masterstroke for Dext. I completely agree.

[00:20:48] I was lucky enough to join him on the stage at XeroCon. And yeah, he knows his stuff and he's been not just knowing it, but applying it.

[00:20:56] And that those two are not the easiest to find in individuals nowadays.

[00:21:00] But Dext isn't been the only thing that's been busy in the accounts payable space this year.

[00:21:05] You've had the launch of Mimo.

[00:21:07] You've had the launch of Adfin and you've had the acquisition of Nook by Modular.

[00:21:13] All big changes. If you're on, you know, a platform in the accounts payable space, you should be looking at what's out there, because not only do you have these, but you also have the new AI powered tools such as Genesis and Briefcase that are disrupting.

[00:21:26] And if you didn't catch one of the recent episodes, the app news that we covered was that there are still new like OCR systems being released and connected into the Xero App Store.

[00:21:38] I don't know why there must be a thousand by now. It's just nuts.

[00:21:42] But it's obviously a space that there's lots of businesses still doing things in.

[00:21:46] I mean, as you say, you and I constantly wonder how there is more capacity for more payment solutions and more OCR solutions in the market.

[00:21:54] Yeah. And they still keep coming. And whether what they're doing is just going direct to market and finding an opportunity there, I suspect that's probably what they are doing.

[00:22:04] But inevitably at some point, you know, either some of these products are going to fail or they're going to have to consolidate and merge or be bought out by others.

[00:22:10] Because, again, we've talked about this before, you know, payments in particular is a volume play.

[00:22:15] And the only way that payments are ever going to go in terms of pricing is going to be one to be driven down because that's just the way that the market goes.

[00:22:22] So, yeah, really interesting. But like you say, Mimo, AdSyn, you know, those products that have come into market recently have managed to find themselves a niche, do some great things.

[00:22:32] Modular as well, in particular, with the acquisition of Nook as well, they're going to be doing some really interesting things there, empowering so much more.

[00:22:38] And, you know, talking about other great opportunities, payroll has come back to the fore.

[00:22:42] It's been quiet in the payroll world for a few years in terms of, you know, it was the service line of choice during COVID, wasn't it?

[00:22:50] Because we had all of these like problems with claims and furlough and, you know, making sure you got the right things in the right place and dealing with people and all that kind of stuff.

[00:23:00] It was really complicated. And all of a sudden payroll became the service line that everyone wanted to celebrate and then it's all gone quiet again.

[00:23:06] But now we've had a few interesting things happen.

[00:23:08] So we've had High Bob acquire Pento, which is one of the big sort of multi-country payroll solutions.

[00:23:18] And that's an incredible opportunity for High Bob, who were very big, particularly in the North American space with their HR functionality there.

[00:23:28] You've had Employment Hero go the opposite way and decided to pull a bureau solution.

[00:23:32] And we talked at length with some of the team there about what that was, but they continue to power the QuickBooks payroll.

[00:23:38] And then, of course, we had Buddy, who had their former lodge in the market.

[00:23:41] They've kind of been teasing, I guess, the market for a little while because they've definitely been around in 2023.

[00:23:47] And Jonathan Mistwood from the team there has been making his presence known, it's fair to say, in the market.

[00:23:53] I'm just getting a feel for what it is.

[00:23:54] And I think he's been doing some great research and working really hard and picked up some great people here in the UK now to build out a team that will help to push Buddy into other products.

[00:24:03] And I guess that move from Employment Hero just really opened the doors for Buddy along with others.

[00:24:08] I think we could probably talk about the fact that BrightPay had a terrible failed launch of their products into the cloud in 2023, relaunched it again in 2024.

[00:24:19] But unfortunately, lost a bit of traction as a consequence of the impact and influence of that aborted launch in 2023.

[00:24:28] So Buddy, I think, is probably one to watch if we were going to think about things for 2025.

[00:24:33] Definitely.

[00:24:33] And I mean, it's not quite and down at the end of 2024, I'm still getting emails from potential new payroll solutions going, oh, we're thinking about what we are going to be launching in 2025.

[00:24:43] So, yeah, I think what just based on sure is going to appear on much more of our app news episodes as we progress forward into the new year.

[00:24:50] But something that needs a shout out again, I feel like this is what we do every year now.

[00:24:55] But FreeAgent is the friendliest accounting software.

[00:24:59] What was it, five out of six years now they've won that?

[00:25:02] I still think, I still love ribbing them about the year that they must have been grumpy.

[00:25:06] But yeah, they've had an amazing awards year winning that and just releasing endless releases.

[00:25:13] I think at one point it was like they're on every single app news episode.

[00:25:16] It was crazy how much was being released.

[00:25:18] So they have penetrated upwards into the market, challenging the likes of Xero, QuickBooks Online and Sage as they have grown, substantiated out what they can do.

[00:25:27] And there's a lot more buzz about the FreeAgent product throughout 2024.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:33] And I think they've got a real great opportunity.

[00:25:35] Like you say, 2024 for them has been a foundation year for getting the products, as you say, out of kind of that traditional feeling of being a freelancer, small business, small contractor product.

[00:25:47] And you're starting to open up their market, their integrations and improving some of the feature sets where maybe there was an element of frustration in the bookkeeping and accounting market.

[00:25:55] Just to sort of say, look, we really want you to do this so you can kind of bring us up to a bit more parity compared to Xero on QuickBooks.

[00:26:01] And if that's a market you want to challenge in, you've really got to do that.

[00:26:03] So, yeah, again, another one to watch for 2025.

[00:26:06] It's going to be fascinating to see what they do.

[00:26:08] But I think, you know, if you're kind of looking at which products have put the most updates out into the market and been the most exciting to watch, you know, they're probably number two just behind Dext in terms of what they've been up to.

[00:26:20] Definitely.

[00:26:20] And I guess something we haven't seen much of in 2024 is the practice management space.

[00:26:26] There's been the odd little bit, the odd kind of tweak here and there.

[00:26:30] But probably the biggest news, I would say, is that FYI, which was traditionally a document management system, released Elite, which really pushed them into the practice management space now.

[00:26:43] It brings in the whole billing, timesheets, and I guess the other little things that the system dabbled in but not done fully.

[00:26:51] You know, it's really powerful on workflows.

[00:26:53] So, if you're thinking about practice management, you've now got the likes of Carbon, you've got FYI, you've got EngagerApp, which had an amazing year with their growth and brand in the market.

[00:27:05] So, there are modern tools now.

[00:27:07] There's not just the traditional set.

[00:27:08] You've got things you can look at, and they're all growing up into that mid-tier accounting space.

[00:27:12] It's not just for the small ones.

[00:27:14] So, yes, I think 2025 is going to be more the year of practice management.

[00:27:18] I was really impressed with some of the stuff that they've been working on and building out,

[00:27:21] and they've been working with some of their early adopters as well to really fine-tune some of the product there and stuff.

[00:27:28] And, again, you know, the practice management space has been a bit of a weird one, hasn't it?

[00:27:31] Because, like you say, FYI, launched that product.

[00:27:34] Engager's been massive in a lot of the place.

[00:27:36] You know, Carbon have been quietly sort of scooping up practices here, there, and everywhere.

[00:27:39] And in the midst of that, we then have, you know, Pixie kind of just fall away.

[00:27:44] You know, we've had the sort of the more traditional suites, you know, trying to figure out what their cloud strategy is

[00:27:50] and sort of try to sort of get those early products into market, maybe not being that successful.

[00:27:55] Certainly, again, going back to WIRIS, their element suite is, you know, it's a bit all over the place at the moment.

[00:28:01] And there's not really too much else competing with them.

[00:28:04] You know, Bright made the Accountancy Manager acquisition a while ago,

[00:28:06] and have been trying to sort of slowly roll that into their wider suite as well.

[00:28:10] But they've been very quiet as well.

[00:28:12] So, yeah, there's definitely more opportunity here.

[00:28:17] I think, you know, again, if we talk about 2025, I know we're going to touch on that in much more detail.

[00:28:23] But, you know, larger firms in particular definitely have demands for better practice management tools.

[00:28:28] And as you say, FYI and Carbon in particular have been really targeting that market and moving up into the mid-tier in a big way.

[00:28:36] Definitely. But look, we've left the best wrap-up news for last.

[00:28:40] And that was the launch of the Digital Disruptor Awards.

[00:28:44] We may be biased. We are biased.

[00:28:46] But this was probably the biggest thing that happened in the entire accounting tech world in 2024.

[00:28:53] It was the one they all wanted to win, Ryan, wasn't it?

[00:28:55] It was. I mean, they were clamoring over chairs or whatever people clamor over to get an award.

[00:29:02] And those that did win one ended up sleeping with it in their bed, cherishing it, cuddling it, holding it close, making sure that no one could get to it.

[00:29:10] And I think the thing that I loved about this is that we, you know, we didn't know how this would go.

[00:29:17] And it got really good response, apart from maybe our controversial award.

[00:29:23] But let's not, you know, talk too much about that.

[00:29:27] And look, there's a time and place for honesty in the industry.

[00:29:30] And sometimes you've just got to acknowledge that people screw up.

[00:29:32] And if people in the marketplace are not mature enough to deal with that, then that doesn't sound like a nos problem.

[00:29:38] That sounds like a them problem.

[00:29:41] And who better to do that and present the award than the most unfiltered man in the entire of the accounting tech space, Mr. John Toon.

[00:29:49] But no, we were so chuffed with the response we got with Digital Disruptors Awards.

[00:29:53] It will be back.

[00:29:54] We're going to be formalizing that.

[00:29:56] We'll be discussing it more in 2025.

[00:29:58] But yeah, thank you for everyone that came, everyone that supported it.

[00:30:02] And yeah, we'd love seeing you.

[00:30:04] And I think we should also point out that starting out as a harebrained idea about six weeks before we actually did the event,

[00:30:11] and the support that we had from people in the industry to get it going, to get it off the ground, who came to the event and everything else and made it a success.

[00:30:19] You know, that was very much appreciated.

[00:30:23] And, you know, look, we'll try and be bigger and better for 2025.

[00:30:27] We'll see if we can pack a few more people in through the door and, you know, really make this something that will stand out for the next few years.

[00:30:39] Here we are, joined by Vipul from Advanced Track yet again.

[00:30:43] And just diving into all of the data and information that's in this report that they published earlier in the year.

[00:30:50] And, you know, having gone through it in a lot of detail, I'm looking forward to the 2025 edition Vipul because I'm sure there are going to be more and more exciting things in here.

[00:31:00] One of the key stats that we saw in here was that 65% of firms are now outsourcing and yet, you know, many still struggle with this kind of, you know, the ethical, maybe cultural implications of doing this.

[00:31:11] So I'd love to touch on that with you and find out what are you doing to kind of address those concerns Vipul?

[00:31:16] Partly because I am a chartered accountant.

[00:31:18] Yeah, I look at it through the eyes of my customer, first and foremost.

[00:31:23] What would I want to make me comfortable to use this service?

[00:31:29] Like any business, if you look after your people, they look after the business and your customers.

[00:31:35] And that's the number one priority for us as a business, that if we can look after those people, then it makes everything else so much easier.

[00:31:45] Because if you can look after your best people, they are your ambassadors on the ground.

[00:31:50] Because Vipul isn't there every day of the week.

[00:31:53] Yeah, he has to have a group of people that leads them in a way that they feel, one, empowered and two, proud to work for our business.

[00:32:05] And if you do that, that's a great starting point.

[00:32:08] And security is the other thing that how do we protect not only our reputation, but the reputation of our customers.

[00:32:18] That is the number one thing that we care about.

[00:32:23] So we invest a huge amount in technology to manage that security.

[00:32:28] Security is a massive hot topic in the accounting market at the moment.

[00:32:32] And the risks associated with all of the client data that we hold and obviously phishing attacks and other cybersecurity issues coming to the fore and things like that.

[00:32:44] Yeah, so that's the reason we have multiple ISO accreditations that gives customers the comfort that we've taken it seriously.

[00:32:53] And we use BSI to audit us every year.

[00:32:58] And that's really important from an accountant, customer's point of view that when they are sat in front of the ICAW or their ACCA or other regulatory body,

[00:33:11] they can say we've chosen a provider that's actually taken all of this seriously.

[00:33:16] But so many in our industry just don't do it.

[00:33:20] Yeah.

[00:33:21] Yeah.

[00:33:22] They'll tell you, they'll create this badge that says GDPR compliant.

[00:33:26] Yeah.

[00:33:27] But on what basis are they GDPR compliant?

[00:33:32] Yeah.

[00:33:32] You know, so I think it's looking at the business and saying, what have you done that gives me comfort and that allows me to sleep at night?

[00:33:42] And how do you think outsourcing is affecting your firm's client relationships?

[00:33:46] Because I guess the ideal place for you to work with another accounting firm is almost have a bit of a symbiotic relationship, right?

[00:33:54] So it should be a seamless transition between dealing with your firm here in the UK and then dealing with some of your teams over in India, for example,

[00:34:02] without anyone really realizing that anything's changed.

[00:34:04] Totally.

[00:34:06] And I guess that's where having that technology been embedded within our business and it's just been the way we've worked for a very, very long time.

[00:34:17] I think that makes it a natural way for our team to work.

[00:34:22] And it's what our clients like about working with us.

[00:34:26] So I think that's the key always for us is use technology to the extent that we can and why don't we push it as well?

[00:34:36] You know, we'll actually sit down with firms and one of the first questions we ask them is, what's your tech stack?

[00:34:44] What are you using in order we can just make that process, as you say, a symbiotic way of working,

[00:34:52] that they feel, our team and the client firm, that we're a partnership, genuinely a partnership?

[00:35:01] How do you draw the line between, you know, where the accounting firm starts and ends and where you guys start and end in terms of,

[00:35:08] I don't know, a client sends some information, it sends your team for processing, but then something's missing?

[00:35:13] You know, what are the rules of engagement, if you like?

[00:35:15] I think it comes down to which model you operate.

[00:35:20] So outsourcing, it's much more specific because it's an individual pieces of work that the teams are working on.

[00:35:30] So you're instructed to do this, you hand it over and it's passed over, then you have offshoring and then you have podsourcing.

[00:35:38] And each of them have their little nuances.

[00:35:42] Offshoring is a very individual way of working, but quite often they're within a group, within the client firm.

[00:35:54] And then podsourcing is where you have a very team-based delivery process where you have leadership,

[00:36:01] you have quality controls, et cetera.

[00:36:05] But that operates within the business and almost kind of the two parts come together.

[00:36:13] So you get the team filling in the gaps that might exist or they support the team members onshore.

[00:36:21] I'd love to hear a little bit more about what the genesis for coming up with podsourcing was.

[00:36:26] I know we did touch on that a while ago, but it's always going to refresh people's memories, particularly mine,

[00:36:30] because I'm getting older and forget more.

[00:36:32] It was partly when I read an early draft of this report.

[00:36:36] It was staring me in the face that for two decades, we'd been running pods within our outsourcing division.

[00:36:42] The challenge with offshoring is people can often get stuck in a place that if the client firm doesn't think that they should be doing something else,

[00:36:54] they then get stuck doing the same stuff, they get bored, and then they leave.

[00:36:59] The beauty with the pod structure was it allowed people who were good to carry on moving up the ranks.

[00:37:09] But what we were finding from the market was they like to have their own dedicated teams.

[00:37:16] But the concept of offshoring, it doesn't really lend itself to teams.

[00:37:22] So what we said was actually the podsourcing was the right answer,

[00:37:26] because what it allowed is young men and women to come in through the group.

[00:37:32] And when they're coming through the group, yeah, they will join the team.

[00:37:38] And depending on how they are developing, they will go up or go sideways into another team.

[00:37:46] But the beauty of it is the pod trains the replacement.

[00:37:50] And I think that's the key in all of this is how do you build a resilient business,

[00:37:55] both for yourselves and your clients that allows us as a business to continue supporting them,

[00:38:02] but actually for that to change in a way like a chameleon, yeah, to suit the circumstances.

[00:38:11] And I think that's the key in all of this is actually,

[00:38:15] and we will get our young men and women having longer careers with us.

[00:38:21] They'll be with us for five, six, ten years because they've got those opportunities to step up.

[00:38:28] And that sounds like a great business opportunity as well for you,

[00:38:31] because being able to offer that longevity of a career and opportunities sounds incredible.

[00:38:37] So yeah, kudos to you, Vipo, for getting this out into the market.

[00:38:42] And again, as always, we'd love to hear from you, the listeners,

[00:38:46] in terms of what are you doing around outsourcing?

[00:38:49] Is it something that strikes the fear of God on you?

[00:38:51] Or are you doing this in spades and maybe using Advanced Track or someone else to help with this?

[00:38:57] Really interesting what we saw in the report was that actually,

[00:39:00] if you're a smaller firm with five or less partners,

[00:39:03] then you're more likely than not to be using outsourcing services.

[00:39:07] About 70% of firms were using outsourcing.

[00:39:09] So definitely appeals to smaller in the market and for larger firms like the one that I work for.

[00:39:14] So maybe just some of those traditional viewpoints and challenges still need to be overcome, perhaps.

[00:39:20] Thank you again, Vipo.

[00:39:21] And as I said, always interested to hear what you're doing around this.

[00:39:25] Brilliant.

[00:39:26] Thank you.

[00:39:28] And that brings us to the end of the Digitals in a Cruel World podcast for not only this episode,

[00:39:35] but the whole of 2024.

[00:39:37] Thank you to anyone that has listened to any episodes.

[00:39:41] Obviously, if you're listening to this one, this one particularly,

[00:39:44] please do carry on joining us in 2025.

[00:39:48] We'll be doing a lot of what we have been doing,

[00:39:50] but we're also going to be launching our newsletter.

[00:39:54] We've got some other things that we have discussed in the past regarding education,

[00:39:58] regarding certification and accreditation.

[00:40:01] There are new things that are going to be coming.

[00:40:03] But I think there needs to be a special shout out to a very special person

[00:40:07] that has helped us throughout 2024.

[00:40:09] It's the powerhouse behind what we do, and that is Mr. Lee Stallard.

[00:40:14] Without him, we would not be producing the content that we do now.

[00:40:18] Also, a big shout out for the success that is Indie Tatler with her promotion to co-CEO of Bankable.

[00:40:26] And I'm sure John's also done some stuff in 2024 as well.

[00:40:32] I turned up.

[00:40:33] Yeah, well done, mate.

[00:40:35] Yeah, you get praise for that.

[00:40:36] So, yeah, thanks for everyone for joining us.

[00:40:38] And, yeah, let's move into 2025.

[00:40:40] We look forward to speaking to you then.

[00:40:41] Thank you.